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Old 06-05-2012, 12:15 PM  
The Rick The Rick is offline
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Court Says Gay Rights Trump Religious Rights


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Court Says Gay Rights Trump Religious Rights
By Todd Starnes

The New Mexico Court of Appeals upheld a ruling by the state’s Civil Rights Commission that a Christian photographer who refused to take pictures of a gay couple’s commitment ceremony violated the state’s discrimination law.

“Elane Photography may not discriminate in its commercial activities against protected classes as the basis for expressing its religious freedom,” Judge Tim Garcia wrote in a 45-page ruling.

The case dates back to 2006 when Vanessa Willock tried to hire Elane Photography for a “same-gender ceremony.” New Mexico law does not recognize either marriage or civil unions between persons of the same sex.

Elane Hugenin declined to accept the job and explained to Willock that because of their Christian beliefs the studio only handled “traditional weddings.”

In 2008 the New Mexico Human Rights Commission found Elane Photography guilty of “sexual orientation” discrimination. The studio is owned by a young Christian husband and wife who based their refusal on their religious beliefs.

The Court of Appeals determined that a photo studio is considered a public accommodation – much like a restaurant or a store. As such, the photo studio may not refuse services based on sexual orientation or gender identity – even if doing so would violate the religious principles of the owners.

“The owners of Elane Photography must accept the reasonable regulations and restrictions imposed upon the conduct of their commercial enterprise despite their personal religious beliefs that may conflict with these government interests,” Garcia wrote.

The Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal advocacy group, represented the photography studio. They plan to appeal the ruling.

“Americans in the marketplace should not be subjected to legal attacks for simply abiding by their beliefs,” senior counsel Jordan Lorence said in a statement. “Because the Constitution prohibits the state from forcing unwilling artists to promote a message they disagree with, we will certainly appeal this decision to the New Mexico Supreme Court.”

But the court ruled that once a business offers a service publicly, they must do so “without impermissible exception.”

Elane Photography posed a hypothetical situation to support its argument – imaging what would happen if an African-American photographer refused to photograph a Ku-Klux-Klan rally because the photographer “wanted to refrain from using her photography to communicate a message that she finds deeply offensive.”

However, Judge Garcia said the argument fails as a matter of law.

“The Ku-Klux-Klan is not a protected class,” he wrote. “Sexual orientation, however, is protected.”

The court ruled that the Christian photography company must pay fines totaling nearly $7,000.

You can read the entire court decision by clicking here.

Todd is the author of “Dispatches From Bitter America.” The book is endorsed by Sarah Palin, Mark Levin and Sean Hannity. Click here to get your copy!
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes...us-rights.html
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:23 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
What's with all the swearing?



Here's where you misunderstand this issue: Signs used to be put up like this before. How did it end? It ended by the market when the same businesses couldn't find enough labor. Somehow, without the federal govt's interference the practice of discriminating against the Irish for jobs ended. The market is powerful because it punishes such businesses. This has nothing to do with your "country" signing off on racism. As for the south, regarding lunch counters, it was state govts that made those rules when there were private businesses who wanted to integrate. You read too much PC history.


You have a strong opinion of this issue. I'm not saying your wrong or you are FOS. It's a legitimate opinion. But, so is mine.

It's a difficult issue. There is just no solution that doesn't end up with someone having their rights curtailed.
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If it's effective, who are you, me, or anybody else to call it abuse? I worked with a guy back in Moberly who would shove a finger up his son's ass each time he had anything worse than a C on his report card. If he came home with 2 D's and an F, that's 3 fingers (and this was a big dude). Does that sound hideous and disgusting? Absolutely. Did the kid ever get anything worse than a C after this rule was implemented? Not a chance.

I'm not saying it's morally right or wrong, but does it make the child because of it? Think about that for a second.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:24 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
You have a strong opinion of this issue. I'm not saying your wrong or you are FOS. It's a legitimate opinion. But, so is mine.

It's a difficult issue. There is just no solution that doesn't end up with someone having their rights curtailed.
Yeah, well aside from the race issue, this is not in the same category of thing.
The discrimination laws are based on the idea of animus toward a group—not due to religion teaching something as immoral.
There's just no damages here when another photography studio will accomodate these folks. So there's no violation of any "rights."
Saying THAT isn't valid at all. This is what BIG govt does. It divides and creates more controversy.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:31 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Yeah, well aside from the race issue, this is not in the same category of thing.
The discrimination laws are based on the idea of animus toward a group—not due to religion teaching something as immoral.
I believe that discriminating against someone only because of their sexual orientation is wrong and is constitutionally protected. I think that the SCOTUS will agree with my opinion this week.
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If it's effective, who are you, me, or anybody else to call it abuse? I worked with a guy back in Moberly who would shove a finger up his son's ass each time he had anything worse than a C on his report card. If he came home with 2 D's and an F, that's 3 fingers (and this was a big dude). Does that sound hideous and disgusting? Absolutely. Did the kid ever get anything worse than a C after this rule was implemented? Not a chance.

I'm not saying it's morally right or wrong, but does it make the child because of it? Think about that for a second.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:34 PM   #199
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Yes and any idiot who tried that would not be in business very long. If I pulled up to a business that refused to serve someone based on color I would most likely give them the finger and move on. I believe the government needs to get the **** out of our lives. If funded by the government than they should enforce rules. Schools, military, government jobs I have no problem with their input. As far as private owned businesses and personal issues as far as who can get married or what someone eats they can **** clear off~
As everyone knows there are easy ways to skirt this issue and it gets done a lot. Just don't tell people its because you are gay or black or whatever and then do what you want.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:45 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
I believe that discriminating against someone only because of their sexual orientation is wrong and is constitutionally protected. I think that the SCOTUS will agree with my opinion this week.
I got it. But this is about someone no wanting to take a picture of a gay marriage. Not gay marriage. You're changing the subject.

Other than that, I could give a rats ass what some judicial activist judge claims when they pass legislation from the bench.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:15 PM   #201
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This isn't really a case of discrimination against people because of their sexual preference. It's discrimination on the basis of elective activity (marrying someone of the same sex), which distinguishes it from racial discrimination.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:11 AM   #202
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The photographer isn't marrying them.

How about if a mixed raced couple walks into my studio with their child. I tell them that my personal beliefs are that mixed race breeding is wrong, therefore I refuse to photograph their family because it promotes something I don't personally believe is moral. That is however, discrimination.

As an earlier post said, people can veil their bigotry in religion but it is still bigotry.

People can make up all kinds of BS claiming "religion" to avoid having to play by the rules. It's basically another form Sovereign Citizen psychobabble.

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Old 03-26-2013, 04:22 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Have you ever heard of conflicting rights issues?

Freedom of religion trumps this alleged right of gays to demand an individual take their picture. That's fascism.
Getting their picture taken by certain person or member of a group is not a natural right.


Well, I can't say that a purely libertarian system is a horrible idea. It's just not what we have... And I think what we have is probably better. The problem with allowing discrimination in public business (discounting any ethical argument) is that you never know when you're going to find yourself on the losing end of the tyranny of the majority. A purely libertarian system might be more efficient, but you start to lose the benefits of having a society in the first place. And one of those benefits is the avoidance of such tyranny. It's all too easy to espouse ideas that nurture liberty and freedom to refuse service to anybody you want, while your particular race/creed is in favor. But no matter what you believe, you can find a time and place in the history books that hated your shit for no good reason.

Forgetting that, and calling that freedom seems short sighted to me. REAL freedom is large groups of people, who by social contract, have decided to shelve their differences and get out of the harsh state of nature. That process of shelving our differences means, we don't get to murder each other and we don't get to cheat each other, and we don't get to ostracize a group through tyranny of the majority. All should be enforced by law. That's the whole POINT of society. Let that go, and what do you have left? Might as well go back to the cave.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:30 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
This isn't really a case of discrimination against people because of their sexual preference. It's discrimination on the basis of elective activity (marrying someone of the same sex), which distinguishes it from racial discrimination.
From an ethical standpoint, I see that. But I don't think this is a purely ethical argument. (I do think racists and homophobes are engaging in unethical behavior but that's NOT why I think it should be illegal to discriminate).

I think certain aspects of society need to be protected, by rule of law. In order for society to work at all, we NEED to avoid violence, cheating, and tyranny of the majority. Without laws making these practices illegal, you no longer have a BASE with which you can have a free society.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:25 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Well, I can't say that a purely libertarian system is a horrible idea. It's just not what we have... And I think what we have is probably better. The problem with allowing discrimination in public business (discounting any ethical argument) is that you never know when you're going to find yourself on the losing end of the tyranny of the majority.
The will of the majority point applies when that majority uses govt to stomp on rights more.
So we have fundamental natural rights that are protected.


Quote:
A purely libertarian system might be more efficient, but you start to lose the benefits of having a society in the first place. And one of those benefits is the avoidance of such tyranny. It's all too easy to espouse ideas that nurture liberty and freedom to refuse service to anybody you want, while your particular race/creed is in favor.
This is a collectivist argument when you use society in this manner. The market is capable of, and has, of ending such acts by private businesses. These days, though, the govt is taking things too far and keeps adding to the list of victims. Silly.

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But no matter what you believe, you can find a time and place in the history books that hated your shit for no good reason.
Same goes for you and your progressive egalitarian shit for no good reason other than because you have labeled it a good reason.

It's not a matter of "belief" with me, it's from studying past episodes of discrimination some written by black men such as economics Tom Sowell's books including, Ethnic America and Walter Williams. Perhaps, you need to open your mind to new information instead of what the statists feed us.

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Forgetting that, and calling that freedom seems short sighted to me. REAL freedom is large groups of people, who by social contract, have decided to shelve their differences and get out of the harsh state of nature. That process of shelving our differences means, we don't get to murder each other and we don't get to cheat each other, and we don't get to ostracize a group through tyranny of the majority. All should be enforced by law. That's the whole POINT of society. Let that go, and what do you have left? Might as well go back to the cave.
There really is no social contract. Govt is force. That's a left-progressive-socialist idea stemming from Rousseau. It's bogus. Individuals have rights too. In fact the Constitution protects property rights but since the Progressive Era, influenced by Marx, those have been steadily eroding.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:42 AM   #206
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Awesome.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:47 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Your link was about requiring a facility that is rented out to the public to be accesible to all people, with discrimination not allowed based on race, religion or gayness. It did not require a church to perform a gay marriage in any way.

If a church wants to get into the facility-rental business, it can't discriminate. If it wants to discriminate, it can stay in the religion business. That sounds reasonable to me.

This is exactly what we're talking about, thank you for proving the entire point. You want the government to enforce Churches to "not discriminate". Which is just another way of saying you don't want them to be able to practice their beliefs.



Why can't you at least be honest about your intentions?
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:39 AM   #208
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This is exactly what we're talking about, thank you for proving the entire point. You want the government to enforce Churches to "not discriminate". Which is just another way of saying you don't want them to be able to practice their beliefs.



Why can't you at least be honest about your intentions?
The church gets to practice its beliefs WHEN IT IS ACTING AS A ****ING CHURCH. When it is acting as a facility-rental business, it has to join the real world. And even then, they aren't forced to officiate a wedding or perform any other religous function, nor should they be.
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As long as Jesus Christ was the president of the US and approved of it Yes.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:49 AM   #209
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The photographer isn't marrying them.

How about if a mixed raced couple walks into my studio with their child. I tell them that my personal beliefs are that mixed race breeding is wrong, therefore I refuse to photograph their family because it promotes something I don't personally believe is moral. That is however, discrimination.

As an earlier post said, people can veil their bigotry in religion but it is still bigotry.

People can make up all kinds of BS claiming "religion" to avoid having to play by the rules. It's basically another form Sovereign Citizen psychobabble.
It should not be against the law to be a jackass.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:07 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
The church gets to practice its beliefs WHEN IT IS ACTING AS A ****ING CHURCH. When it is acting as a facility-rental business, it has to join the real world. And even then, they aren't forced to officiate a wedding or perform any other religous function, nor should they be.
Again: you want to force your beliefs (which the churches obviously disagree with strongly) onto them. You think YOUR way, YOUR beliefs, are superior to them and dammit you just want Uncle Sam in there forcing people to accept your viewpoints.



That makes you a nuisance in my book.
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