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Old 04-23-2013, 10:00 AM  
Donger Donger is offline
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The Muslim World Hates the U.S. More Than Ever

http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-world-h...070000727.html

If there was one thing the left was certain about in 2008 it was this: George W. Bush had catastrophically undermined America's world reputation with his unprovoked aggression and use of torture. The advent of Obama would reverse the damage. As Andrew Sullivan wrote in 2007, among best assets Obama brought to the "rebranding" of America was "his face." The election of Obama and his friendly approach to the Muslim world would make the United States safer as well as more just.

No one believed this tale more fervently than Obama himself. His first official act was to direct the closing of Guantanamo Bay within one year and the elimination of harsh interrogation techniques. The "message we are sending around the world," he intoned, "is that the United States intends to prosecute the ongoing struggle ... in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals." In Cairo a few months later, he declared, "a new beginning" of relations between America and the Muslim world.

Obama participated in erecting a Bush straw man a Bush who disdained and caricatured Muslims in general and committed war crimes in the name of national security. In fact, Bush had gone to great pains, within hours of the 9/11 attacks, to appear with imams and to stress that Islam was a "religion of peace."

Because Iraq had been Bush's war, as Obama saw it, he squandered the hard-won victory by failing to obtain an agreement that would have kept a stabilizing American force on the ground, electing instead to withdraw completely. And because Afghanistan was the war that Bush allegedly neglected, Obama sent 33,000 more troops (fewer than the generals requested) a surge that, unlike Bush's in Iraq failed, but not before causing 70 percent of the American deaths in that conflict.

Most of all, the Obama administration fled from the concept of a struggle against Islamic terrorism as if fighting jihadis (the small subset of Muslims who've declared war on us) were equivalent to warring against all Muslims. Orwellian language flowed. The war on terror became "overseas contingency operations." When Major Nidal Hassan gunned down his fellow soldiers shouting "Allahu Akbar!" the president warned against jumping to conclusions (a caution he failed to show himself in the Trayvon Martin and Henry Louis Gates cases). His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism.

When Faisal Shahzad attempted to explode a car bomb in Times Square, the administration at first declared it to be a lone wolf attack, only later reluctantly conceding that the Pakistani Taliban had been culpable. When the consulate in Benghazi was attacked (undermining the administration narrative that al-Qaida had died with bin Laden), the administration conducted a prolonged disinformation campaign designed to deny the obvious.

Tiptoeing through language after the Boston bombings, the administration at first declined to use the word "terror," perhaps fearing that to use the word would imply a Muslim connection. "You use those words and it means something very specific in people's minds," explained David Axelrod. Besides, he continued, the president suspected "tax day" protesters.

What has this excruciating torture of the language and elaborate "rebranding" achieved? The U.S. is not safer. Terror attacks have been attempted at the same rate as during the Bush years (and have been thwarted slightly less successfully). As for U.S. standing in the Muslim world, the Guardian reports that a 2011 poll found favorability ratings for the U.S. have plummeted. "In most countries they are lower than at the end of the Bush administration, and lower than Iran's favorable ratings." A 2012 Pew poll of six predominantly Muslim nations Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan found U.S. approval ratings below those during the Bush Administration and well under the popularity of China.

It's one thing to create a bogeyman for political purposes. Obama did it to Bush in 2008 (for use against McCain), and he did it to Romney in 2012. It's quite another to believe your own propaganda and make policy in response. Bush was no anti-Muslim bigot. If he erred, it was in believing too credulously in the readiness for western-style democracy in the Arab world.

As for Obama, his doubletalk about the nature of our enemies jihadis has achieved neither greater safety for Americans nor improved popularity in the Muslim world. He's 0 for 2.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:35 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Well, haters are gonna hate, so no, that wasn't realistic. I think just like in any other situation there is a vast swath of middle of the roaders and undecideds who I think many hoped might be swayed by a dramatically different voice in the White House. That isn't why I voted for Obama (in '08), but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I'd like more insight as to the reasons behind this fall. I suspect that many in the area and its neighbors are somewhat irrationally holding Syria against us. Seemingly, we're often damned if we do and damned if we don't. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan is also something that needed to happen, but as security has degraded I'm sure that gets held against us too. They hate us when they're there, but then when they leave and things suck worse, they blame us for abandoning them. Pakistanis probably had more reason to like Bush than Obama, but not for reasons that are necessarily good for the US.

I don't have much evidence to support the thoughts I've expressed above, but just based on typical human psychology I'd expect they are largely true.
Yeah, but what about the bias?

I agree that there certainly was just a tad too much "hope" being floated around with Obama, not to mention more than a little arrogance.

Thanks for your opinion on the matter.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:37 AM   #47
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You're just angry because your prayers for Obama's loss in the second term were completely ignored. Pray harder....
that's all you've got?

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Old 04-23-2013, 11:39 AM   #48
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And, yes, Obama does blame Bush.



Zogby said that he was surprised that favorable attitudes toward the United States had actually dropped to levels below where they were in 2008. By the same token, he said, Obama has been burdened by the fact that “every one of the issues that he’s inherited has been more difficult than he or anyone else expected.”

Obama, for instance, has had to make difficult decisions on Iraq and on Afghanistan, and try to set down new markers for progress among Israelis and Palestinians.

“He didn’t get a magic wand when he took the oath office,” Zogby said. “They handed him a shovel to get out of a deep hole.”
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:44 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
And, yes, Obama does blame Bush.

That's fairly possible, actually. If you have two guys in, say, Jordan, and one hates the US for invading Iraq, but the other one supported it, and now Obama leaves Iraq, is the one that hated teh US for invading now going to like us? No. Is the one that supported us and our invasion now disappointed or mad or whatever that we left and things in Iraq are unstable? Yep, very possible.

Not hard to see.

Bottom line is that the US reputation in the ME is going to suck for many, many years to come. Part of it is just the price of being the world's last superpower. We get blamed for everything in many instances. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, as I noted before.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:45 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Yeah, but what about the bias?
Not sure exactly what you're referring to here.

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I agree that there certainly was just a tad too much "hope" being floated around with Obama, not to mention more than a little arrogance.
The Obama arrogance was/is alot less damaging than Bush's, IMHO, who was so completely off-base abotu the consequences of invading Iraq, at tremendous cost to American blood and treasure.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:45 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
That's fairly possible, actually. If you have two guys in, say, Jordan, and one hates the US for invading Iraq, but the other one supported it, and now Obama leaves Iraq, is the one that hated teh US for invading now going to like us? No. Is the one that supported us and our invasion now disappointed or mad or whatever that we left and things in Iraq are unstable? Yep, very possible.

Not hard to see.

Bottom line is that the US reputation in the ME is going to suck for many, many years to come. Part of it is just the price of being the world's last superpower. We get blamed for everything in many instances. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, as I noted before.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:45 AM   #52
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Oh look, everybody. Barry's toelicker is here.
Voted for Romney in '12, so get your facts straight for once.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
That's fairly possible, actually. If you have two guys in, say, Jordan, and one hates the US for invading Iraq, but the other one supported it, and now Obama leaves Iraq, is the one that hated teh US for invading now going to like us? No. Is the one that supported us and our invasion now disappointed or mad or whatever that we left and things in Iraq are unstable? Yep, very possible.

Not hard to see.

Bottom line is that the US reputation in the ME is going to suck for many, many years to come. Part of it is just the price of being the world's last superpower. We get blamed for everything in many instances. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, as I noted before.
It isn't going to change unless we stop supporting Israel.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #54
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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I'd like to hear from the Obama supporters on this. Did you really think that Obama, being who and what you thought he was, was really going to change the minds of "the Muslims who hate America"?
No. I don't know anyone who did think that.

What's funny is that the writer of the column is using those polls of decreased Muslim support to attack Obama. Had the polls of Muslims showed increased support, then that would be used to attack him--as 'proof' of his appeasment of them. He's accused of appeasing them anyway.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:51 AM   #55
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Not sure exactly what you're referring to here.
I was making fun of Fish and his strange hangup about bias.

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The Obama arrogance was/is alot less damaging than Bush's, IMHO, who was so completely off-base abotu the consequences of invading Iraq, at tremendous cost to American blood and treasure.
No argument from me on the decision to invade Iraq, as you know.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:54 AM   #56
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No. I don't know anyone who did think that.
You don't think that was Obama's goal, particularly with the New Beginning speech in Cairo?
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:08 PM   #57
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They really don't hate us more than ever it really hasn't changed that much since 2006-2007. The favorability ratings have stayed pretty much flat

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Old 04-23-2013, 12:10 PM   #58
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Voted for Romney in '12, so get your facts straight for once.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:12 PM   #59
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They really don't hate us more than ever it really hasn't changed that much since 2006-2007.




We want them to like us, send them more money Obama.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:15 PM   #60
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I'm wondering what she thinks would be achieved if Obama did ramp up his rhetoric?.?

And as far as her saying it was Obama that used Bush's rhetoric for political gain, sure he probably did, but you need to look no further than Bush's performance in the Muslim vote from '00 to '04 to see why Obama wouldn't want to adopt the same stance as the GOP in regards to discussing Muslims. Bush's plummet in the Muslim vote had nothing to do with Obama, so I'd like to hear how she explains it while trying to act like Bush was a Muslim lover.

And I gotta laugh at this

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Terror attacks have been attempted at the same rate as during the Bush years (and have been thwarted slightly less successfully).
Yes, there have been more successful attacks but she's totally omitting their severity with that statement.

I'm also surprised she doesn't bring up drone strikes, which is a great argument for why there is so much anti-American sentiment.

Lastly, it's my belief that terrorism will never end until we become an isolationist non-superpower, and that won't happen any time soon. Even if we did become that, there will always be someone that feels slighted and is backed by an extremist ideology. So, in saying that, I can agree with her that the president's rhetoric has not changed much.
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