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Old 04-23-2013, 11:00 AM  
Donger Donger is offline
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The Muslim World Hates the U.S. More Than Ever

http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-world-h...070000727.html

If there was one thing the left was certain about in 2008 it was this: George W. Bush had catastrophically undermined America's world reputation with his unprovoked aggression and use of torture. The advent of Obama would reverse the damage. As Andrew Sullivan wrote in 2007, among best assets Obama brought to the "rebranding" of America was "his face." The election of Obama and his friendly approach to the Muslim world would make the United States safer as well as more just.

No one believed this tale more fervently than Obama himself. His first official act was to direct the closing of Guantanamo Bay within one year and the elimination of harsh interrogation techniques. The "message we are sending around the world," he intoned, "is that the United States intends to prosecute the ongoing struggle ... in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals." In Cairo a few months later, he declared, "a new beginning" of relations between America and the Muslim world.

Obama participated in erecting a Bush straw man — a Bush who disdained and caricatured Muslims in general and committed war crimes in the name of national security. In fact, Bush had gone to great pains, within hours of the 9/11 attacks, to appear with imams and to stress that Islam was a "religion of peace."

Because Iraq had been Bush's war, as Obama saw it, he squandered the hard-won victory by failing to obtain an agreement that would have kept a stabilizing American force on the ground, electing instead to withdraw completely. And because Afghanistan was the war that Bush allegedly neglected, Obama sent 33,000 more troops (fewer than the generals requested) — a surge that, unlike Bush's in Iraq — failed, but not before causing 70 percent of the American deaths in that conflict.

Most of all, the Obama administration fled from the concept of a struggle against Islamic terrorism as if fighting jihadis (the small subset of Muslims who've declared war on us) were equivalent to warring against all Muslims. Orwellian language flowed. The war on terror became "overseas contingency operations." When Major Nidal Hassan gunned down his fellow soldiers shouting "Allahu Akbar!" the president warned against jumping to conclusions (a caution he failed to show himself in the Trayvon Martin and Henry Louis Gates cases). His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism.

When Faisal Shahzad attempted to explode a car bomb in Times Square, the administration at first declared it to be a lone wolf attack, only later reluctantly conceding that the Pakistani Taliban had been culpable. When the consulate in Benghazi was attacked (undermining the administration narrative that al-Qaida had died with bin Laden), the administration conducted a prolonged disinformation campaign designed to deny the obvious.

Tiptoeing through language after the Boston bombings, the administration at first declined to use the word "terror," perhaps fearing that to use the word would imply a Muslim connection. "You use those words and it means something very specific in people's minds," explained David Axelrod. Besides, he continued, the president suspected "tax day" protesters.

What has this excruciating torture of the language and elaborate "rebranding" achieved? The U.S. is not safer. Terror attacks have been attempted at the same rate as during the Bush years (and have been thwarted slightly less successfully). As for U.S. standing in the Muslim world, the Guardian reports that a 2011 poll found favorability ratings for the U.S. have plummeted. "In most countries they are lower than at the end of the Bush administration, and lower than Iran's favorable ratings." A 2012 Pew poll of six predominantly Muslim nations — Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan — found U.S. approval ratings below those during the Bush Administration and well under the popularity of China.

It's one thing to create a bogeyman for political purposes. Obama did it to Bush in 2008 (for use against McCain), and he did it to Romney in 2012. It's quite another to believe your own propaganda and make policy in response. Bush was no anti-Muslim bigot. If he erred, it was in believing too credulously in the readiness for western-style democracy in the Arab world.

As for Obama, his doubletalk about the nature of our enemies — jihadis — has achieved neither greater safety for Americans nor improved popularity in the Muslim world. He's 0 for 2.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:16 PM   #61
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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You don't think that was Obama's goal, particularly with the New Beginning speech in Cairo?
Do I think Obama's goal was to "change the minds of the Muslims who hate America"? No, I don't. The haters aren't going to be swayed by a speech, and likely don't care much who the president is. As long as the US supports Israel and is going after terrorists in Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, etc., they gonna hate.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Do I think Obama's goal was to "change the minds of the Muslims who hate America"? No, I don't. The haters aren't going to be swayed by a speech, and likely don't care much who the president is. As long as the US supports Israel and is going after terrorists in Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, etc., they gonna hate.
So you think he was going after just the "we don't like America" Muslims?
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-world-h...070000727.html

His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism.
I understand why the incident can be considered to be both an act of domestic terrorism and an eruption of workplace violence. It has qualities in common with both. I didn't go dig up the letter that this point references. I dug up a link from Faux Noise, because I count on them to the most biased media source against the current administration, and expect them to find and distort the most damning "evidence" available. So this is what I found from them, an excerpt from a letter from the Department of Defense:

"The documents attached illustrate how the Department is dealing with the threat of violent Islamist extremism in the context of a broader threat of workplace violence," read the letter, which was obtained by Fox News.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz2RJSgVO59


And then I looked up the speach that he gave at Fort Hood:



Following is an advance transcript of President Obama's remarks at the Fort Hood memorial service, as provided by the White House.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...50&ft=1&f=1001

We come together filled with sorrow for the thirteen Americans that we have lost; with gratitude for the lives that they led; and with a determination to honor them through the work we carry on.

This is a time of war. And yet these Americans did not die on a foreign field of battle. They were killed here, on American soil, in the heart of this great American community. It is this fact that makes the tragedy even more painful and even more incomprehensible.

For those families who have lost a loved one, no words can fill the void that has been left. We knew these men and women as soldiers and caregivers. You knew them as mothers and fathers; sons and daughters; sisters and brothers.

But here is what you must also know: your loved ones endure through the life of our nation. Their memory will be honored in the places they lived and by the people they touched. Their life's work is our security, and the freedom that we too often take for granted. Every evening that the sun sets on a tranquil town; every dawn that a flag is unfurled; every moment that an American enjoys life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness — that is their legacy.

Neither this country — nor the values that we were founded upon — could exist without men and women like these thirteen Americans. And that is why we must pay tribute to their stories.

Chief Warrant Officer Michael Cahill had served in the National Guard and worked as a physician's assistant for decades. A husband and father of three, he was so committed to his patients that on the day he died, he was back at work just weeks after having a heart attack.

Major Libardo Eduardo Caraveo spoke little English when he came to America as a teenager. But he put himself through college, earned a PhD, and was helping combat units cope with the stress of deployment. He is survived by his wife, sons and step-daughters.

Staff Sergeant Justin DeCrow joined the Army right after high school, married his high school sweetheart, and had served as a light wheeled mechanic and Satellite Communications Operator. He was known as an optimist, a mentor, and a loving husband and father.

After retiring from the Army as a Major, John Gaffaney cared for society's most vulnerable during two decades as a psychiatric nurse. He spent three years trying to return to active duty in this time of war, and he was preparing to deploy to Iraq as a Captain. He leaves behind a wife and son.

Specialist Frederick Greene was a Tennessean who wanted to join the Army for a long time, and did so in 2008 with the support of his family. As a combat engineer he was a natural leader, and he is survived by his wife and two daughters.

Specialist Jason Hunt was also recently married, with three children to care for. He joined the Army after high school. He did a tour in Iraq, and it was there that he re-enlisted for six more years on his 21st birthday so that he could continue to serve.

Staff Sergeant Amy Krueger was an athlete in high school, joined the Army shortly after 9/11, and had since returned home to speak to students about her experience. When her mother told her she couldn't take on Osama bin Laden by herself, Amy replied: "Watch me."

Private First Class Aaron Nemelka was an Eagle Scout who just recently signed up to do one of the most dangerous jobs in the service — diffuse bombs — so that he could help save lives. He was proudly carrying on a tradition of military service that runs deep within his family.

Private First Class Michael Pearson loved his family and loved his music, and his goal was to be a music teacher. He excelled at playing the guitar, and could create songs on the spot and show others how to play. He joined the military a year ago, and was preparing for his first deployment.

Captain Russell Seager worked as a nurse for the VA, helping veterans with Post-Traumatic Stress. He had great respect for the military, and signed up to serve so that he could help soldiers cope with the stress of combat and return to civilian life. He leaves behind a wife and son.

Private Francheska Velez, the daughter of a father from Colombia and a Puerto Rican mother, had recently served in Korea and in Iraq, and was pursuing a career in the Army. When she was killed, she was pregnant with her first child, and was excited about becoming a mother.

Lieutenant Colonel Juanita Warman was the daughter and granddaughter of Army veterans. She was a single mother who put herself through college and graduate school, and served as a nurse practitioner while raising her two daughters. She also left behind a loving husband.

Private First Class Kham Xiong came to America from Thailand as a small child. He was a husband and father who followed his brother into the military because his family had a strong history of service. He was preparing for his first deployment to Afghanistan.

These men and women came from all parts of the country. Some had long careers in the military. Some had signed up to serve in the shadow of 9/11. Some had known intense combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, and some cared for those did. Their lives speak to the strength, the dignity and the decency of those who serve, and that is how they will be remembered.

That same spirit is embodied in the community here at Fort Hood, and in the many wounded who are still recovering. In those terrible minutes during the attack, soldiers made makeshift tourniquets out of their clothes. They braved gunfire to reach the wounded, and ferried them to safety in the backs of cars and a pick-up truck.

One young soldier, Amber Bahr, was so intent on helping others that she did not realize for some time that she, herself, had been shot in the back. Two police officers — Mark Todd and Kim Munley — saved countless lives by risking their own. One medic — Francisco de la Serna — treated both Officer Munley and the gunman who shot her.

It may be hard to comprehend the twisted logic that led to this tragedy. But this much we do know — no faith justifies these murderous and craven acts; no just and loving God looks upon them with favor. And for what he has done, we know that the killer will be met with justice — in this world, and the next.

These are trying times for our country. In Afghanistan and Pakistan, the same extremists who killed nearly 3,000 Americans continue to endanger America, our allies, and innocent Afghans and Pakistanis. In Iraq, we are working to bring a war to a successful end, as there are still those who would deny the Iraqi people the future that Americans and Iraqis have sacrificed so much for.

As we face these challenges, the stories of those at Fort Hood reaffirm the core values that we are fighting for, and the strength that we must draw upon. Theirs are tales of American men and women answering an extraordinary call — the call to serve their comrades, their communities, and their country. In an age of selfishness, they embody responsibility. In an era of division, they call upon us to come together. In a time of cynicism, they remind us of who we are as Americans.

We are a nation that endures because of the courage of those who defend it. We saw that valor in those who braved bullets here at Fort Hood, just as surely as we see it in those who signed up knowing that they would serve in harm's way.

We are a nation of laws whose commitment to justice is so enduring that we would treat a gunman and give him due process, just as surely as we will see that he pays for his crimes.

We are a nation that guarantees the freedom to worship as one chooses. And instead of claiming God for our side, we remember Lincoln's words, and always pray to be on the side of God.

We are a nation that is dedicated to the proposition that all men and women are created equal. We live that truth within our military, and see it in the varied backgrounds of those we lay to rest today. We defend that truth at home and abroad, and we know that Americans will always be found on the side of liberty and equality. That is who we are as a people.

Tomorrow is Veterans Day. It is a chance to pause, and to pay tribute — for students to learn of the struggles that preceded them; for families to honor the service of parents and grandparents; for citizens to reflect upon the sacrifices that have been made in pursuit of a more perfect union.

For history is filled with heroes. You may remember the stories of a grandfather who marched across Europe; an uncle who fought in Vietnam; a sister who served in the Gulf. But as we honor the many generations who have served, I think all of us — every single American — must acknowledge that this generation has more than proved itself the equal of those who have come before.

We need not look to the past for greatness, because it is before our very eyes.

This generation of soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen have volunteered in a time of certain danger. They are part of the finest fighting force that the world has ever known. They have served tour after tour of duty in distant, different and difficult places. They have stood watch in blinding deserts and on snowy mountains. They have extended the opportunity of self-government to peoples that have suffered tyranny and war. They are man and woman; white, black, and brown; of all faiths and stations — all Americans, serving together to protect our people, while giving others half a world away the chance to lead a better life.

In today's wars, there is not always a simple ceremony that signals our troops' success — no surrender papers to be signed, or capital to be claimed. But the measure of their impact is no less great — in a world of threats that no know borders, it will be marked in the safety of our cities and towns, and the security and opportunity that is extended abroad. And it will serve as testimony to the character of those who serve, and the example that you set for America and for the world.

Here, at Fort Hood, we pay tribute to thirteen men and women who were not able to escape the horror of war, even in the comfort of home. Later today, at Fort Lewis, one community will gather to remember so many in one Stryker Brigade who have fallen in Afghanistan.

Long after they are laid to rest — when the fighting has finished, and our nation has endured; when today's servicemen and women are veterans, and their children have grown — it will be said of this generation that they believed under the most trying of tests; that they persevered not just when it was easy, but when it was hard; and that they paid the price and bore the burden to secure this nation, and stood up for the values that live in the hearts of all free peoples.

So we say goodbye to those who now belong to eternity. We press ahead in pursuit of the peace that guided their service. May God bless the memory of those we lost. And may God bless the United States of America.

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Old 04-23-2013, 01:43 PM   #64
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The problem for Obama clearly here is that Bush set the bar too high in the Muslim world so the expectations of realizing a higher approval rating were out of reach in the first place.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:46 PM   #65
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:46 PM   #66
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As far as polls go that reflect how well we are accepted in countries that I consider to be strongly opposed to our way of life, I could not give one rat's ass nor one flying **** what they think about us. I don't give a shit if they hated Bush, and I don't give a shit if they hate Obama. I think Amnorix made some valid points about the psychology of the people living in those countries we are involved in.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:49 PM   #67
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I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

Well, then I won't immolate myself. Thanks for giving me a heads up.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:58 PM   #68
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As far as polls go that reflect how well we are accepted in countries that I consider to be strongly opposed to our way of life, I could not give one rat's ass nor one flying **** what they think about us. I don't give a shit if they hated Bush, and I don't give a shit if they hate Obama. I think Amnorix made some valid points about the psychology of the people living in those countries we are involved in.
good comments....
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:08 PM   #69
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So you think he was going after just the "we don't like America" Muslims?
I think he was "going after" two main audiences--open-minded folks willing to see his appearance and speech as a good gesture, and the US audience--to show the new president on the world stage.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:37 PM   #70
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The Libyan militia group that the State Department hired to defend its embattled diplomatic mission in Benghazi had clear al-Qaida sympathies, and had prominently displayed the al-Qaida flag on a Facebook page for some months before the deadly attack. That organization, the February 17th Martyrs Brigade, was paid by the U.S. government to provide security at the U.S. diplomatic mission in Benghazi, Libya. But there is no indication the Martyrs Brigade fulfilled its commitment to defend the mission on Sept. 11, when it came under attack.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ben...o_code=135B1-1

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Old 05-03-2013, 02:39 PM   #71
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Well, haters are gonna hate, so no, that wasn't realistic. I think just like in any other situation there is a vast swath of middle of the roaders and undecideds who I think many hoped might be swayed by a dramatically different voice in the White House. That isn't why I voted for Obama (in '08), but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I'd like more insight as to the reasons behind this fall. I suspect that many in the area and its neighbors are somewhat irrationally holding Syria against us. Seemingly, we're often damned if we do and damned if we don't. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan is also something that needed to happen, but as security has degraded I'm sure that gets held against us too. They hate us when they're there, but then when they leave and things suck worse, they blame us for abandoning them. Pakistanis probably had more reason to like Bush than Obama, but not for reasons that are necessarily good for the US.

I don't have much evidence to support the thoughts I've expressed above, but just based on typical human psychology I'd expect they are largely true.
I think this is a fair reading of the situation.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:18 PM   #72
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We didn't have to leave either Iraq or Afghanistan. The Obama administration should be judged on it's decision to retreat from the area and right now it's not looking good for them.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:19 PM   #73
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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We didn't have to leave either Iraq or Afghanistan. The Obama administration should be judged on it's decision to retreat from the area and right now it's not looking good for them.
You do know the Boston Bombers said they did what they did because of Iraq and Afghanistan right?

That doesn't sound like leaving those places, which we haven't, has anything to do with anything.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:22 PM   #74
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You do know the Boston Bombers said they did what they did because of Iraq and Afghanistan right?

That doesn't sound like leaving those places, which we haven't, has anything to do with anything.
I don't think we should abandon our hard won progress in Iraq to appease would be terrorist radicals in our midst.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:29 PM   #75
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Looks to me like Obama will supply arms to one side, whomever they are, and stay in the shadows as long as its muslims killing muslims. If the tide changes, he will equip the other side. We wont send troops. Just bullets

Hate to say it but seems like a viable option.
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