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Old 05-03-2013, 05:31 PM  
Comrade Crapski Comrade Crapski is offline
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Keep Stone Mountain carving a Confederate Memorial

A young man asked me why do they want to change the carving at Stone Mountain Park?



The question should also be why do some people continue to try erasing history? There is a petition drive to change the beautiful historic carving at Stone Mountain Memorial Park near Atlanta, Georgia? See news story from 11 Alive of Atlanta, Georgia including their interview with me. A special thank you to Mr. Dan Coleman who participated in the debate that followed.

Read what I said including, “Like previous campaigns criticizing other Confederate Memorials, he sees the petition to remove the carving of Jefferson, Lee and Jackson as an attack on the truth.”

A online poll currently shows 95 percent of the people want to keep the Stone Mountain Carving of our heroes Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson as it is.

Let me caution you with this poll that we also won most of the polls for the 1956 Georgia “Soldier’s Memorial flag” our official State flag of Georgia conceived by Judge John Sammons Bells that was unceremoniously taken down in 2001. They did not listen to the people of Georgia back then.

Mississippian’s however, were allowed to vote on their 1890s State flag, that also includes the Confederate Battle flag in the design, and they chose to keep it. Georgian’s were allowed to vote on a State flag but their 1956 flag with the Confederate flag it its design, was excluded in the vote. Democracy was at work in Mississippi but not Georgia.

Stone Mountain has been filmed many times including in the 1954 movie “A Man called Peter” starring Richard Todd as Reverend Peter Marshall and Jean Peters as his wife.

Take the time to learn about the South’s President Jefferson Davis, Gen. Robert E. Lee and Gen. Stonewall Jackson who died 150 years ago on May 10, 1863 and share with your family.

Jefferson and wife Varina Davis adopted a Black child, Jim Limber Davis, in February 1864 and…

Booker T. Washington, America’s great Black-American Educator wrote in 1910, ‘The first white people in America, certainly the first in the South to exhibit their interest in the reaching of the Negro and saving his soul through the medium of the Sunday-school were Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.”

Let’s not erase history!


http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/54938


A native of Georgia, Calvin Johnson, Chairman of the National and Georgia Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, Confederate History Month Committee—-Scv.org lives near the historic town of Kennesaw and he’s a member of the Chattahoochee Guards Camp, Sons of Confederate Veterans. He is the author of the book “When America Stood for God, Family and Country.” Calvin can be reached at: cjohnson1861@bellsouth.net

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:43 PM   #361
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
That's a fair point. I always excuse folks from that time frame on these issues because context is very important. If I was born in the South that time I'd have been the same way, much like I'd be a Muslim today were I born in Saudi Arabia.

Lincoln had the same view. In one of his speeches he basically said the same thing. If I was born in the South, chance are I'd own slaves.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:01 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Why did the South call it a Secession instead of a Revolution. What was the reason? What were they attempting to say by calling it a secession?

/You never answered it.
//you never really answered any of them
///For someone who likes to accuse of others of copy/paste, that is all you did. I at least offer commentary
////Also, explain why Simpson is wrong
Read the thread. I already gave you an answer.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:20 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Read the thread. I already gave you an answer.
I just re read the thread.

No where to do answer Why the Confederates called their actions a secession instead of a Revolution. That served a purpose. What was that purpose? What were their intentions?

(hint, it has to with the notion that the Federal Government did not have the right to force them to remain in the Union.)

You can cite all the "theories" you want (without actually pinpoint which one it is your are advocating), but the only important thing that matter is what the Southern leaders meant by using "Secession".

And you never, once, addressed Simpson.

/saying irrelevant is a cowards way out
//but you are better at name calling than critical thinking.
///You can't attach "seccesion" onto the American Revolution to attempt to justify Southern actions.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:58 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Lincoln had the same view. In one of his speeches he basically said the same thing. If I was born in the South, chance are I'd own slaves.
The thing was, only a limited % of Southerners even got to own slaves. I've seen estimates range from 15-30%. According to the Census approximately 1/3 of the total South population was slave and about 25% of households owned a slave. But that doesn't really tell us how big each household was. I.e. if 10 poor farmers from 1 extended family lived in one home on one farm then that counts for only 1 household.


Regardless we know that only about 5% of Southerners had sizeable slave stables. Slaves then cost $4K or about $160k by today's dollar. Average folks couldn't afford them. In fact the owners bred them like crazy because it was so cheap. (Average slave woman had 9.2 children). Who cares about shutting down new imports when the current models replicated so well?
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history...de-and-slavery



Basically the 3/4 of Southerners who didn't get to own slaves felt 2 things: (1) superiority to a lower class which made them feel good, and (2) relief they weren't working those hard jobs. Which the Elites threatened them would happen if slavery was abolished. That's why they went along with rebellion.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:56 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I just re read the thread.

No where to do answer Why the Confederates called their actions a secession instead of a Revolution. That served a purpose. What was that purpose? What were their intentions?

(hint, it has to with the notion that the Federal Government did not have the right to force them to remain in the Union.)

You can cite all the "theories" you want (without actually pinpoint which one it is your are advocating), but the only important thing that matter is what the Southern leaders meant by using "Secession".

And you never, once, addressed Simpson.

/saying irrelevant is a cowards way out
//but you are better at name calling than critical thinking.
///You can't attach "seccesion" onto the American Revolution to attempt to justify Southern actions.
Like I said before, they called it a secession because it was a secession. They could have called it something else, but they picked secession. The founding fathers could have called our war for Independence a secession, but they made a different choice. The name doesn't define the action, the action defines the action and the name is either apt or it isn't.

Your question isn't relevant to whether or not the two were examples of secession anyway. If you want to try to make a point based on your garbled reading of history, you should just make it instead of asking me to answer questions that have nothing to do with the point I cared about. Both were secessions regardless of whether or not you understand the term.

I don't plan on addressing Simpson. I don't follow you on your off-point tangents. I stick to the point I care about no matter how much you want to shift the argument around when things get uncomfortable. I thought I already made that clear.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:22 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Like I said before, they called it a secession because it was a secession. They could have called it something else, but they picked secession. The founding fathers could have called our war for Independence a secession, but they made a different choice. The name doesn't define the action, the action defines the action and the name is either apt or it isn't.

Your question isn't relevant to whether or not the two were examples of secession anyway. If you want to try to make a point based on your garbled reading of history, you should just make it instead of asking me to answer questions that have nothing to do with the point I cared about. Both were secessions regardless of whether or not you understand the term.

I don't plan on addressing Simpson. I don't follow you on your off-point tangents. I stick to the point I care about no matter how much you want to shift the argument around when things get uncomfortable. I thought I already made that clear.

"but they picked secession" Why did they pick secession? That is the question.

If names don't matter, why would someone attempt to justify the Confederate actions of leaving the union by bringing up and calling the American Revolution a secession? A person wouldn't do that if they didn't attach some sort of ideal behind the word.

Listen, I agree, you can call something anything you want. But the very nature of the argument in this thread was using the "term" secession applied to the American Revolution in an attempt to justify Confederate action; and hence meaning does have to given to the term.

And calling Simpson, who explains why the Deceleration wasn't a secession with explanation, off-point tangents is lying at best, proving a lack of reading comprehension at worst. The quotes I supplied of Simpson only addressed our debate. You questioned where I got my definition, I provide a historian, and you hide behind false accusations.

Your excuses are weak.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:29 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
But the very nature of the argument in this thread was using the "term" secession applied to the American Revolution in an attempt to justify Confederate action; and hence meaning does have to given to the term.
Not that's not the very nature of the argument. I've been gone, and haven't refreshed my memory, but I believe I originally made the argument. So you don't get to reframe it your way.

For one justification is being used here as if they did something wrong. Under the conditions, it's not wrong. If anything, the Southern states had more of a right to secede, without the Feral govt using military force to keep them in the Union, since it was created as a voluntary union.

Facts are:
The War for American Independence began with a secession from Great Britain by declaring themselves independent states that had the powers of any state. Then they had to fight to defend that natural right.

The Southern States seceded and made themselves an independent confederation. Then they had to fight to defend that natural right.

Apparently you don't support the idea of government based on the consent of the governed.


Quote:
And calling Simpson, who explains why the Deceleration wasn't a secession with explanation, off-point tangents is lying at best, proving a lack of reading comprehension at worst. The quotes I supplied of Simpson only addressed our debate. You questioned where I got my definition, I provide a historian, and you hide behind false accusations.
Nice appeal to authority instead of primary documents which you claimed to be superior. We know that's only when such documents support your side.

Quote:
Your excuses are weak.
Project much?

Bottom Line:
You just think secession is wrong and is a affront to your values. Basically, you just don't like it.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:36 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
The thing was, only a limited % of Southerners even got to own slaves. I've seen estimates range from 15-30%. According to the Census approximately 1/3 of the total South population was slave and about 25% of households owned a slave. But that doesn't really tell us how big each household was. I.e. if 10 poor farmers from 1 extended family lived in one home on one farm then that counts for only 1 household.


Regardless we know that only about 5% of Southerners had sizeable slave stables. Slaves then cost $4K or about $160k by today's dollar. Average folks couldn't afford them. In fact the owners bred them like crazy because it was so cheap. (Average slave woman had 9.2 children). Who cares about shutting down new imports when the current models replicated so well?
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history...de-and-slavery



Basically the 3/4 of Southerners who didn't get to own slaves felt 2 things: (1) superiority to a lower class which made them feel good, and (2) relief they weren't working those hard jobs. Which the Elites threatened them would happen if slavery was abolished. That's why they went along with rebellion.
There is always that wierd notion that people will support something they don't currently have, because they think they will one day want it. Some people who didn't own slaves would protect slavery on the idea they might one day own slaves.

Your two points are fairly correct, especially on the overall political level. (don't forgot the "there take your jobs).

But I would add that participation in the war on a individual level is as complex as the individuals who fought. Some men simply joined up out of peer pressure from the rest of the town joining. Some did it for the sign on bonus. Some did simply to whip a yankee or put a confederate in their place. Some did to defend their state.

I haven't done a lot of reading on the confederate homefront, but I have a bit on the Union side. Individual outlooks on the war are based on very personal reasons. How does having your husband and 3 sons leave the farm affect someone's view of the war, is an example.

And MO. My god, MO. In Mo you would join to protect yourself from the raiders on both sides.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:36 PM   #369
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"but they picked secession" Why did they pick secession? That is the question.
So what? If the Union was considered voluntary by many at the time, then why not just say you are seceding from a formerly supported union?

Their Constitution seems to be based on plenty of the same concepts of the American War for Independence, so why call it another revolution? There's no need, as they were doing the same thing as done earlier. That's not exactly a revolution, now is it?

Duh?
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:37 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
There is always that wierd notion that people will support something they don't currently have, because they think they will one day want it. Some people who didn't own slaves would protect slavery on the idea they might one day own slaves.
That is absolute bullshit conjecture.

The average Johnny Reb fought to defend their homes. That's the natural reaction of any human.

If anything, this is more projection, since you advocate positions that create a new kind of slavery—for all.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:38 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
For one justification is being used here as if they did something wrong. Under the conditions, it's not wrong. If anything, the Southern states had more of a right to secede, without the Feral govt using military force to keep them in the Union, since it was created as a voluntary union..

Laughably dumb. If it was entirely voluntary there'd be no need to sign anything. If you could retain autonomy the state conventions would be totally pointless. If you've ever signed anything in life, you'd know that your signature carries obligations.



Maybe you haven't ever signed anything. That's one explanation for your specious reasoning here.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:39 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
The average Johnny Reb fought to defend their homes. That's the natural reaction of any human.

What were they doing in Union territory then? "Johnny Reb" was defending his home up there in Gettysburg?
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:41 PM   #373
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The thing was, only a limited % of Southerners even got to own slaves. I've seen estimates range from 15-30%. According to the Census approximately 1/3 of the total South population was slave and about 25% of households owned a slave. But that doesn't really tell us how big each household was. I.e. if 10 poor farmers from 1 extended family lived in one home on one farm then that counts for only 1 household.
It was 10-15%. And remember some Northern Generals who executed the war, had slaves as well as border states.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:43 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That is absolute bullshit conjecture.

The average Johnny Reb fought to defend their homes. That's the natural reaction of any human.

If anything, this is more projection, since you advocate positions that create a new kind of slavery—for all.
Yea, I outlined that in the rest of post. Did you even finish it before replying?
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:45 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
There is always that wierd notion that people will support something they don't currently have, because they think they will one day want it. Some people who didn't own slaves would protect slavery on the idea they might one day own slaves.
That's a great point. Even the ones who didn't have slaves conceivably believed they could some day. But the rate of slaveholding households had actually dropped since the Missouri Compromise of 1820. It went from 35% to something like 20%. Farms were consolidating resources and slaves were becoming more valuable and hence more expensive.


Quote:
But I would add that participation in the war on a individual level is as complex as the individuals who fought. Some men simply joined up out of peer pressure from the rest of the town joining. Some did it for the sign on bonus. Some did simply to whip a yankee or put a confederate in their place. Some did to defend their state.
.

In Houston's anti-secession speech to the Texas legislature in 1860, he flatly charged "rabble rousers" with inventing controversies and outrages. Ie., hanging slaves themselves and trying to pin it on mysterious abolitionists. Damaging property and farms and blaming it on Northerners. He really stuck his neck out when you consider the era and the passions of the day!
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