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Old 06-07-2013, 01:14 AM  
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Rand Paul to Introduce Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013

Rand Paul to Introduce Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013
Mike Riggs|Jun. 6, 2013 2:24 pm

Gage SkidmoreIn the wake of reports that the NSA has collected millions of phone records from Verizon customers, Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) announced today that he will introduce the Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013 tomorrow, Friday, June 7. Here's the release from Paul's office:

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Sen. Rand Paul today announced he will introduce the Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013, which ensures the Constitutional protections of the Fourth Amendment are not violated by any government entity.

“The revelation that the NSA has secretly seized the call records of millions of Americans, without probable cause, represents an outrageous abuse of power and a violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. I have long argued that Congress must do more to restrict the Executive’s expansive law enforcement powers to seize private records of law-abiding Americans that are held by a third-party,” Sen. Paul said. “When the Senate rushed through a last-minute extension of the FISA Amendments Act late last year, I insisted on a vote on my amendment (SA 3436) to require stronger protections on business records and prohibiting the kind of data-mining this case has revealed. Just last month, I introduced S.1037, the Fourth Amendment Preservation and Protection Act, which would provide exactly the kind of protections that, if enacted, could have prevented these abuses and stopped these increasingly frequent violations of every American’s constitutional rights.

“The bill restores our Constitutional rights and declares that the Fourth Amendment shall not be construed to allow any agency of the United States government to search the phone records of Americans without a warrant based on probable cause.”

http://reason.com/blog/2013/06/06/ra...urth-amendment
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:12 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
but are they "documents"?

records of numbers called and duration of calls is not any kind of "document" that I'm aware of but i haven't done any research to confirm that...
Yes, it's a document.

doc·u·ment

/ˈdäkyəmənt/
Noun
A piece of written, printed, or electronic matter that provides information or evidence or that serves as an official record.


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Old 06-07-2013, 07:13 PM   #47
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By the way, I saw this and laughed:

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Old 06-07-2013, 09:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
The data being collected "belongs" to the phone company. They have it. It's clearly in their possession, custody and control.

Look, I'm just saying that if you're usually a "strict constructionist" guy, then there is NO WAY this is a 4th amendment violation. It's not even close.
The fact that the phone company has the info in the first place undermines the 4th Am search & seizure argument.

The "right" being violated would be a right to privacy, which of course is not even specifically contained in the Constitution. Most 'strict constructionists' and the like criticize the Supreme Court for even finding a right to privacy in the "penumbras" of other Constitutional rights. But now, these same people are screaming the loudest about this privacy right being violated.
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:51 AM   #49
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Oh come the **** on people. You can't really be defending this government overreach, can you?
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:04 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
Oh come the **** on people. You can't really be defending this government overreach, can you?
It's who they are.

Was there ever any doubt?
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:11 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
Oh come the **** on people. You can't really be defending this government overreach, can you?
Not sure who you are referring to, but it is not really a "defense" of it to merely point out that this isn't some clear Constitutional violation. The people who favor the strictest, most narrow interpretation of the Cons. probably have the least ground to stand on making a Cons. argument. Some issues are complex and perhaps deserve more than knee-jerk reactions. The fact that this program has been publicly known for many years but is suddenly receiving this scrutiny now is kind of odd, isn't it?
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:32 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Not sure who you are referring to, but it is not really a "defense" of it to merely point out that this isn't some clear Constitutional violation. The people who favor the strictest, most narrow interpretation of the Cons. probably have the least ground to stand on making a Cons. argument. Some issues are complex and perhaps deserve more than knee-jerk reactions. The fact that this program has been publicly known for many years but is suddenly receiving this scrutiny now is kind of odd, isn't it?
I don't really give a **** about the timing of it. There is no knee-jerk reaction. I screamed about the overreach of the Bush administration too. And if I were to bet, so did you.

The fact that it is finally gaining some much needed press coverage is a good thing. And it shouldn't matter who is in the White House.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:55 AM   #53
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Does it surprise anyone that the communists and/or that the most communist leaning folks in this forum are defending such totalitarian measures?

Not I.
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Does it surprise anyone that the communists and/or that the most communist leaning folks in this forum are defending such totalitarian measures?

Not I.
Who do you think defended it? It was mentioned that this isn't some clear Constitutional violation. Then you went into ad hominem mode.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
I don't really give a **** about the timing of it. There is no knee-jerk reaction. I screamed about the overreach of the Bush administration too. And if I were to bet, so did you.

The fact that it is finally gaining some much needed press coverage is a good thing. And it shouldn't matter who is in the White House.
EXACTLY. But as we all know some are so blindly loyal to their "team" they will defend to the end. That isnt just towards cosmo. There are die hard right wingers that would be doing the same thing. In fact Im sure they are right now. Probably were defending it as for our protection back when Bush signed it into law, now of course its bad.


how about its bad that our Government is doing it.


Just like in 2016 when the GOP gets back in as I suspect. (these things go in cycles). I guarantee the new administration will be right on the same page as both the Bush and Obama administration on this and basically everything else. except for the distraction stuff they throw out like bird seed to let the two sides squabble over so we think we have a say in things.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:48 PM   #56
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EXACTLY. But as we all know some are so blindly loyal to their "team" they will defend to the end. That isnt just towards cosmo. There are die hard right wingers that would be doing the same thing. In fact Im sure they are right now. Probably were defending it as for our protection back when Bush signed it into law, now of course its bad.


how about its bad that our Government is doing it.


Just like in 2016 when the GOP gets back in as I suspect. (these things go in cycles). I guarantee the new administration will be right on the same page as both the Bush and Obama administration on this and basically everything else. except for the distraction stuff they throw out like bird seed to let the two sides squabble over so we think we have a say in things.
Some of what you said is true, but I really don't see anyone "defending" it. Another poster pointed out that while someone may be against the program, the cries of "Unconstitutional!" might be misplaced, and for some who are allegedly for a strict interpretation, hypocritical.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:49 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Who do you think defended it? It was mentioned that this isn't some clear Constitutional violation. Then you went into ad hominem mode.
This is what I was saying for defending it. And, no, being a communist is appropriate and quite relevant because they were totalitarians. Meanwhile, your guy who you defend is guilty of the following as well:

Federalist Paper Number 47:
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
This is what I was saying for defending it. And, no, being a communist is appropriate and quite relevant because they were totalitarians. Meanwhile, your guy who you defend is guilty of the following as well:

Federalist Paper Number 47:
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
Entertaining that something might be constitutional is not the same as personally being in favor of it.

Quoting the Federalist Papers is irrelevant.
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:49 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Entertaining that something might be constitutional is not the same as personally being in favor of it.
Thinking it isn't is the problem.

Quote:
Quoting the Federalist Papers is irrelevant.
No it's relevant. This is tyranny and you support it.
Now quit stealing my lines, troll.

FYI naming an ideology is not ad hominem. Not when it's correct terminology.

But, all trolls are subject to ad hominem, as return fire.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:19 PM   #60
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The fact that our govt even needs to try and attempt to pass legislation like this means we're all ****ed and the constitution doesn't mean shit anymore.

If you try to bring up "constitutional rights" to any law enforcement officer from any branch of govt they'll either simply laugh at you/ignore you, or they'll slap cuffs on you thinking you're an extremist and will take you to jail on some bullshit resisting arrest charge and then you'll be put into some database and the next thing you know you're on some no-fly list and you have no idea as to why other than the fed govt has linked you as a terrorist....just like white male gun owners, people who are self sufficient, farmers, good ol boys, and most of all, returning war veterans.

country's ****ed up man...
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