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Old 05-21-2012, 12:50 PM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Catholic organizations across the country file suit against contraception mandate

Catholic organizations across the country file suit against contraception mandate


Published May 21, 2012| FoxNews.com

Some of the most influential Catholic institutions in the country filed suit against the Obama administration Monday over the so-called contraception mandate, in one of the biggest coordinated legal challenges to the rule to date.

Claiming their "fundamental rights hang in the balance," a total of 43 plaintiffs filed a dozen separate federal lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of the requirement. Among the organizations filing were the University of Notre Dame, the Archdiocese of New York and The Catholic University of America.

The groups are objecting to the requirement from the federal health care overhaul that employers provide access to contraceptive care. The Obama administration several months ago softened its position on the mandate, but some religious organizations complained the administration did not go far enough to ensure the rule would not compel them to violate their religious beliefs.

A statement from the University of Notre Dame said the requirement would still call on religious-affiliated groups to "facilitate" coverage "for services that violate the teachings of the Catholic Church."

"The federal mandate requires Notre Dame and similar religious organizations to provide in their insurance plans abortion-inducing drugs, contraceptives and sterilization procedures, which are contrary to Catholic teaching," the statement said.

Rev. John Jenkins, the president of Notre Dame, said in a message to the campus that the filing "is about the freedom of a religious organization to live its mission, and its significance goes well beyond any debate about contraceptives."

The contraception rule does include an exemption for religious organizations -- but that exemption does not cover many religious-affiliated organizations like schools and charities. Complaints about the narrowly tailored exemption prompted a stand-off between the Obama administration and religious groups earlier this year. As a compromise, the administration said insurers -- and not the religious-affiliated organizations themselves -- could be required to offer contraceptive coverage directly.

But many organizations were not satisfied with the plan. John Garvey, president of Catholic University, said in a statement Monday that "such a revision would not solve our moral dilemma." He argued that the cost of contraceptive coverage would still be "rolled into the cost" of a university insurance policy.

"In the end the university, its employees and its students will be forced to pay for the prescriptions and services we find objectionable," he said.

University of Notre Dame Law Prof. Richard Garnett said in a statement that the mandate could affect a range of religious institutions, including "schools, health care providers and social welfare agencies."

On a separate track, officials at a Florida Catholic university decided Monday to drop student health care coverage, becoming the second school this month to make that call. The decision at Ave Maria University was based in part on objections to the contraception rule, but also on projected increased premium costs tied to new rules in the federal health care overhaul.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ption-mandate/
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:04 AM   #301
mcan mcan is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
...

You already have taken away enough freedoms already. Progressives have been steadily chipping away at them, as well as the Constitution. ( a document you secretly despise )You're trying to do it again. Many progressive ideas are fascism, including this.

Make the world a better place? Seriously, don't you even realize your version of what makes this is subjective. What is good or bad, better or worse are opinions.

Well, forming a society means giving up rights. And sometimes that line ebbs and flows with time. The "yelling bomb in a crowded movie theater" is a prominent example. You have a right to free speech, but there are limits, and those limits aren't static. They change with need. There weren't movie theaters when the constitution was written. Perhaps the property/eminent domain argument IS apples to oranges. I'll take that criticism. But I don't think that religious people should be allowed to give their employees shitty benefits and claim it's okay because... God and stuff. And the moral outrage is manufactured to try and bolster an argument that is garbage from the start. This is about finding something to fight about that will get bible thumpers to vote for you.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:06 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
It's not coercion, it's SOCIETY. If you want to live in a total libertarian utopia, you're welcome to find a Ruby Ridge somewhere. But when I live in a society, I have to give up certain freedoms for the greater good. (strictly speaking, in a state of nature I have the freedom to kill if I want, like a wild animal). But that's no way to live. Alphas getting everything, and the least well off getting skewered. Society is about finding a balance between keeping as many freedoms as we can, but keep the STATE a great place to live for as many people as possible. Turns out, we have the technology to prevent unwanted pregnancies. But some people's bosses think that people shouldn't have sex, and therefore are going to dictate their employees' lives by denying them that technology. Just imagine a Scientologist who owns a coffee shop, and denies his employees access to medication. We can't have this non sense, couched in moral outrage. And hiding behind religious rights is an intellectual trump card that society is getting sick of. In the 80s it was "the children." Oh, what about "the children?" Eventually we saw through that. People see through this too.
Again... you are confused in thinking that because an employer doesn't want to pay for something that means I can't have it. I am pretty sure that everyone in America thinks that it would be wrong to deny people the ability to go visit the Grand Canyon. Does that mean that every employer should have to pay for a trip? Just because your employer doesn't PAY FOR your birth control doesn't mean you can't buy it yourself. Same for medications if you have a Scientologist employer. Your logic on this is completely off base and really pretty screwed up. It's as if you don't believe in ANY personal responsibility at all.

BTW do you believe that employers should pay for condoms? Seems pretty damn sexist that only women get birth control. What about vasectomies?

We have the technology to make sure men don;t have to suffer the shame of a bald head. Society thinks that everyone has a right to a full head of hair! Therefore employers should pay for hair plugs and Rogaine... right?

I'm sorry, it's a ridiculous argument that you are making. Should women be ALLOWED access to contraception... absolutely. Should they get it given to them for free by forcing people who are against it to pay for it? **** NO.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:07 AM   #303
mcan mcan is offline
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
There just isn't any way around Murder, you want to legalize it? Birth Control = Good, Abortion = Murder.
I believe that abortion is PREVENTING a human, not killing one. We've been over this. But that's not the issue I'm talking about. I can understand why some people might not feel this way, and I can even understand the moral outrage presented by those who feel abortion is murder.

But trying to block somebody from access to birth control is just absurd. You offer health benefits to your employees, you don't have the right to hold what kind of health care they should get over their heads because of your superstitions.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:08 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Birth control is killing babies? Since when? I'm pro abortion too, but that's a separate argument.
The ACA includes both birth control AND abortifacients like the morning after pill. So according to the people who think life begins at conception, they will be forced to pay for abortions. Still ok with it?
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:11 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
I believe that abortion is PREVENTING a human, not killing one. We've been over this. But that's not the issue I'm talking about. I can understand why some people might not feel this way, and I can even understand the moral outrage presented by those who feel abortion is murder.

But trying to block somebody from access to birth control is just absurd. You offer health benefits to your employees, you don't have the right to hold what kind of health care they should get over their heads because of your superstitions.
Who is blocking anyone? Birth Control costs $12 a month. Jesus, you guys act like it's some giant financial burden. It's available at every WalMart, CVS, Walgreens, etc etc etc
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:14 AM   #306
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Again... you are confused in thinking that because an employer doesn't want to pay for something that means I can't have it. I am pretty sure that everyone in America thinks that it would be wrong to deny people the ability to go visit the Grand Canyon. Does that mean that every employer should have to pay for a trip? Just because your employer doesn't PAY FOR your birth control doesn't mean you can't buy it yourself. Same for medications if you have a Scientologist employer. Your logic on this is completely off base and really pretty screwed up. It's as if you don't believe in ANY personal responsibility at all.

BTW do you believe that employers should pay for condoms? Seems pretty damn sexist that only women get birth control. What about vasectomies?

We have the technology to make sure men don;t have to suffer the shame of a bald head. Society thinks that everyone has a right to a full head of hair! Therefore employers should pay for hair plugs and Rogaine... right?

I'm sorry, it's a ridiculous argument that you are making. Should women be ALLOWED access to contraception... absolutely. Should they get it given to them for free by forcing people who are against it to pay for it? **** NO.

If we want to argue that birth control should be considered akin to LASIK or liposuction (a voluntary procedure that shouldn't be covered by health insurance), I can SEE that argument. but I think it's pretty thin. Sleeping, eating, and having sex are straight up what humans are driven to do. And if medication is out there that can significantly improve the lives of human beings in any of these categories, quickly and cheaply, safely and effectively, then I think it's our responsibility to make sure that the people who need it most have access to it.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:17 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
The ACA includes both birth control AND abortifacients like the morning after pill. So according to the people who think life begins at conception, they will be forced to pay for abortions. Still ok with it?

I think we need not cow tow to the fringe. There are also millions of people who think that immunization shots cause Autism. But you don't take seriously the people who want to pass legislation to prevent immunization.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:27 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
If we want to argue that birth control should be considered akin to LASIK or liposuction (a voluntary procedure that shouldn't be covered by health insurance), I can SEE that argument. but I think it's pretty thin. Sleeping, eating, and having sex are straight up what humans are driven to do. And if medication is out there that can significantly improve the lives of human beings in any of these categories, quickly and cheaply, safely and effectively, then I think it's our responsibility to make sure that the people who need it most have access to it.
It's not thin AT ALL. Contraception is completely 1000% ELECTIVE. Lack of contraception doesn't equal a lack of sex. It does however make sex more convenient and enjoyable. Ok so let's apply that to eating. I'm guessing that employers should pay for gourmet food delivery as well right? Oh and they damn well better pay for my new sleep # bed so that sleeping is better for me too! See how ridiculous this is?

AND yet again you seem to think that just because people "should" have something to make their life better that someone ELSE should pay for it. This is not the government paying for it. This is just some other ****ing dude paying for it. Companies are not some amorphous entity that exists in the ether. They are often just some people and you are FORCING those people to go against their convictions because you think it's some kind of ****ing travesty that a woman pays $12 a month out of pocket for an elective "medication." That is incredibly unjust. AGAIN I can't stress enough that I fully support contraception myself.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:34 AM   #309
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I think we need not cow tow to the fringe. There are also millions of people who think that immunization shots cause Autism. But you don't take seriously the people who want to pass legislation to prevent immunization.
THE FRINGE? I don't agree with the concept but it is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR from fringe.

Newsweek poll from 2003 46% believe life begins at conception

Zogby International conducted the poll for WorldNetDaily and it questioned 1,099 likely voters from August 22 to 24, 2008
The survey found 59 percent believe human life begins at conception


I can go on and on and on and on... that view is far from fringe man.

And yeah the immunization weirdos are legitimately fringe but that's apples to oranges. They believe in pseudo science and tin foil hat crap that simply doesn't exist, the life begins at conception crowd simply have a different moral or philosophical view.
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:43 AM   #310
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I think this pretty much sums up Mcan's position.

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Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.
We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain. ~Fredric Bastiat
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:46 AM   #311
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I think this pretty much sums up Mcan's position.
Yes it does. Also, Kotter thinks that everything ancient is new. <--referring to the word "ancient" in the first line of the quote.

But then again, most progressives, socialists or illiberals today share this confusion of private and government. Just wait until we hear more cases being denied care under ACA. Then they'll say that's what insurance companies do. They'll forget this is why they wanted govt involved in healthcare.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:49 AM   #312
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I think we need not cow tow to the fringe.
Remember the left's views used to be considered the "fringe." It's just that those views have gained acceptance. It's no wonder this change occurred with the left controlling most of education and media. The public had to be dumbed down first to accept them.

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There are also millions of people who think that immunization shots cause Autism.
Don't forget that includes medical doctors.

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But you don't take seriously the people who want to pass legislation to prevent immunization.
As if this is a logical comparison. Another logical fallacy. As if it's the govt's job to prevent pregnancies.

A better comparison would be to Nazi Germany since you're defending a fascist policy. ( as well as killing other humans because they're not "people" yet.) Leave religious institutions alone. It's a free country. People can still buy their own birth control without such places being coerced.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:51 AM   #313
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I'll never understand why an employer gets to force their religious beliefs onto an employee.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:54 AM   #314
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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I believe that abortion is PREVENTING a human, not killing one.
At least it's just your religion. Science doesn't agree with you though.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:56 AM   #315
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You have it backwards.

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I'll never understand why an employer gets to force their religious beliefs onto an employee.
There's no "force" here since it's a private organization and so a person has freedom of choice to not work there. On the other hand, govt is force because you either comply or go to jail or pay a fine. There's no gun to someone's head in the free market of labor. So there's no conflicting natural fundamental right here since there is no right to a job at a particular place. There is a fundamental natural right being denied with this forced mandate but it's not any right to a health benefit. It's for freedom of religion.

BTW, this is another example of fascist economics because it denies liberty to an employer. Just a note, since you don't know economics.
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A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
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