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Old 06-10-2013, 06:40 AM  
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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1984 versus Brave New World

With all the Big Brother talk and concern with the NSA stuff, since it finally got media attention, I figured it would be a good time to start up a discussion between the two dystopian novels of 1984 and Brave New World.

If you haven't read one or both:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

The main debate between the novels is which dystopian style government controls us.

Does negative, punishment style government control us? The Big Brother tactics (Like NSA) with punishment. Or does overabundance of positive stimulates brainwash us into submission Brave New World Style.

Huxley, The author of Brave New World, gets the debate going with a Letter to Orwell: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03...new-world.html
Quote:

Wrightwood. Cal.
21 October, 1949

Dear Mr. Orwell,

It was very kind of you to tell your publishers to send me a copy of your book. It arrived as I was in the midst of a piece of work that required much reading and consulting of references; and since poor sight makes it necessary for me to ration my reading, I had to wait a long time before being able to embark on Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Agreeing with all that the critics have written of it, I need not tell you, yet once more, how fine and how profoundly important the book is. May I speak instead of the thing with which the book deals — the ultimate revolution? The first hints of a philosophy of the ultimate revolution — the revolution which lies beyond politics and economics, and which aims at total subversion of the individual's psychology and physiology — are to be found in the Marquis de Sade, who regarded himself as the continuator, the consummator, of Robespierre and Babeuf. The philosophy of the ruling minority in Nineteen Eighty-Four is a sadism which has been carried to its logical conclusion by going beyond sex and denying it. Whether in actual fact the policy of the boot-on-the-face can go on indefinitely seems doubtful. My own belief is that the ruling oligarchy will find less arduous and wasteful ways of governing and of satisfying its lust for power, and these ways will resemble those which I described in Brave New World. I have had occasion recently to look into the history of animal magnetism and hypnotism, and have been greatly struck by the way in which, for a hundred and fifty years, the world has refused to take serious cognizance of the discoveries of Mesmer, Braid, Esdaile, and the rest.

Partly because of the prevailing materialism and partly because of prevailing respectability, nineteenth-century philosophers and men of science were not willing to investigate the odder facts of psychology for practical men, such as politicians, soldiers and policemen, to apply in the field of government. Thanks to the voluntary ignorance of our fathers, the advent of the ultimate revolution was delayed for five or six generations. Another lucky accident was Freud's inability to hypnotize successfully and his consequent disparagement of hypnotism. This delayed the general application of hypnotism to psychiatry for at least forty years. But now psycho-analysis is being combined with hypnosis; and hypnosis has been made easy and indefinitely extensible through the use of barbiturates, which induce a hypnoid and suggestible state in even the most recalcitrant subjects.

Within the next generation I believe that the world's rulers will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging and kicking them into obedience. In other words, I feel that the nightmare of Nineteen Eighty-Four is destined to modulate into the nightmare of a world having more resemblance to that which I imagined in Brave New World. The change will be brought about as a result of a felt need for increased efficiency. Meanwhile, of course, there may be a large scale biological and atomic war — in which case we shall have nightmares of other and scarcely imaginable kinds.

Thank you once again for the book.

Yours sincerely,

Aldous Huxley
I, personally, believe that Brave New World style is more controlling of us in our present time. Our society has an overabundance of Drugs and pleasurable media to keep us distracted, among other positive stimulus. We allow advertisements to practically brainwash us through repetition (Propaganda requires repetition). I do believe we are practically conditioned to accept our place in society.

"And that," put in the Director sententiously, "that is the secret of happiness and virtue -- liking what you've got to do. All conditioning aims at that: making people like their unescapable social destiny." (Huxley, Brave New World pg 26).

I can't discount the Big Brother aspect, though I don't think we have the wide spread violence of 1984. I very well could be wrong.

What do you guys think?

Here is a link to Brave New World Revisit, more essay's by Huxley explaining his views. I highly recommend reading it: http://www.huxley.net/bnw-revisited/

Edit: Also, feel free to talk about We by Yevgeny Zamyatin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel)

Or any other Dystopian books. I love Dystopian novels.

Last edited by Loneiguana; 06-10-2013 at 03:47 PM..
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:16 AM   #46
Rausch Rausch is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Either they find a way to be content and happy with what they have and not let society affect them too much or society takes advantage of that "want" to be content Brave New World style.
I'd argue we're beyond that point.

The idea of an "individual" or "individual society" is gone. Everything is social and shared.

For around $500,000 you can buy a bunker with all the things modern life seems to require of you.

Our punter could afford this.

The ****ing punter.

Human actions are based on two things: desire and ability.

Once your ability equals your desire you are happy.

We don't all share the same desires...
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
If you haven't checked out We yet, do so. Those darn Russians know how to write a Dystopian.
OK. All I did was read the synopsis on Wikipedia and it made my skin crawl. Jesus.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:31 AM   #48
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Newspeak that loneiguana uses as well as the left:

FRREDOM is SLAVERY

FORCE is what an employer offers as part of their compensation package.

FASCISM is what buyers and sellers offer in the marketplace.

A CITY STATE is not a STATE.
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Old 07-06-2013, 07:05 AM   #49
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Newspeak that loneiguana uses as well as the left:

FRREDOM is SLAVERY

FORCE is what an employer offers as part of their compensation package.

FASCISM is what buyers and sellers offer in the marketplace.

A CITY STATE is not a STATE.
This is stupid, even for you. The last two doesn't even make sense.

You don't even understand what Newspeak is.
Newspeak is ambiguous and Contradictory. Except for your stolen example from 1984, What you wrote is neither of those.

Continue to lie about someone else's position by purposely using emotion driving language instead of offering data to sell your own. What is that called? Oh yes, propaganda.

Thanks for this example how BEP uses Propaganda to distract from her views and their failings.
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Old 07-06-2013, 12:34 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
This is stupid, even for you. The last two doesn't even make sense.
Of course not...but that's you—all the way!

Quote:
You don't even understand what Newspeak is.
Yes I do. You don't understand Economics.
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Thanks for this example how I use commie-like Alinsky Propaganda to distract from her views and their failings.
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:10 PM   #51
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I know this is a bit off topic, but if you've read BNW, you should read Ape and Essence, by Huxley. It is the view of the future once nuclear weapons became a reality. He believed his vision of the future in BNW could no longer happen. The first 40 or so pages are strange and kind of hard for some to get through, but it is worth it in my opinion.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:59 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Of course not...but that's you—all the way!


Yes I do. You don't understand Economics.


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Neither Ambiguous or Contradictory BEP.

It does not meet the definition of Newspeak.

But I love how rebuttals from you are nothing more than a childish "no, you." You can't even offer an explaination for why you think it is. And you claim to be older than me.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by bowener View Post
I know this is a bit off topic, but if you've read BNW, you should read Ape and Essence, by Huxley. It is the view of the future once nuclear weapons became a reality. He believed his vision of the future in BNW could no longer happen. The first 40 or so pages are strange and kind of hard for some to get through, but it is worth it in my opinion.
I love to read Huxley. I haven't read that, but Ill add it to the list.

Have you read the Doors of Perception, also by Huxley?

When I heard The Doors took their name from that book, I had to read it.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:39 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I, personally, believe that Brave New World style is more controlling of us in our present time.....(snip)


I can't discount the Big Brother aspect, though I don't think we have the wide spread violence of 1984. I very well could be wrong.

What do you guys think?
Absolutely.....The Brave New World style is what is upon us...but in times of crisis, when their control starts to slip away, it will no doubt fall back to the 1984 style...before an inevitable revolution
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