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View Poll Results: Will these steps benefit you or your family?
No pre-existing conditions. 18 34.62%
No cap on benefits. 16 30.77%
Insurance companies can't drop you or your family if they get sick. 14 26.92%
Carrying your kids on your health insurance until the age of 26. 11 21.15%
Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of all revenue on healthcare. If they go over, we get a refund. 18 34.62%
More preventive services will be free. 16 30.77%
Screw Obamacare 33 63.46%
Gaz says I'm indifferent 3 5.77%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-03-2013, 08:06 PM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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Will these Obamacare steps benefit you or your family?

Will these steps benefit you or your family?

  1. No pre-existing conditions.
  2. No cap on benefits. If I or a member of my family need to battle cancer, they will get the help they need.
  3. Insurance companies can't drop me or my family if we get sick.
  4. Carrying your kids on your health insurance until the age of 26.
  5. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of all revenue on healthcare. If they go over, we get a refund.
  6. A shitload of preventive services will be free. Googled the list.http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskf...uspsabrecs.htm

Spin off from another thread. Going to make this a private poll
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:25 PM   #106
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I think getting everyone in the pool is a positive, but wrt cost, it's a one-time spreading of the cost. It does nothing to address the primary cost problem which is the much more rapid than inflation rising costs of health care.
I agree, the cost issue is a separate and even tougher problem to deal with but once the insurance side is made better, we can face the tough issues of cost as a country.

To me, part of the 'cost' issue is addressed by getting people in the pool...because every person that gets ER treatment and then doesnt pay adds to the cost of the people that pay. Eliminating that problem makes looking at costs and dealing with costs much easier.

About the only way I can think of to deal with costs are standardizing of pricing and making pricing for procedures clearer and easily known.....so that competition can drive pricing down.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
If someone doesn't want to participate in a market they should have the freedom to do, no matter what it costs anyone else. Otherwise, it's fascism.

I couldn't afford healthcare when I first got out of college and went without for about 3 years. Then got it by joining the national association for the self-employed which made it affordable. Around the later part of the '90s I dropped it due to rising premiums, for a temporary period. Instead it lasted for 7 years and I had a young child during that period. It was risky but I refused to play the game. Then got some via my spouse's employment when they added it, but even those premiums continually rose. So I called insurance as we moved around to different policies which promised premiums would not rise that much. Their answer to when they did rise, was the govt kept adding mandates and they had to pass on the costs. If I recall correctly, there was also something going on with phasing out PPOs in favor of HMOs, but I can't recall the specifics exactly.
As people have already noted though, everyone participates in our healthcare system by definition. It's just that some people are getting free, albeit barebones, catastrophic insurance while everyone else is paying for it.

I'm not going to call these people leechers, because they're just playing by the current rules of the game, but there is a percentage of them who would buy (at least catastrophic) insurance if they knew that going without coverage would mean no care at all in the event of an unforeseen accident. In theory at least, bringing those people into the system is no different than forcing people to pay for the local fire department through the tax system.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:53 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
If someone doesn't want to participate in a market they should have the freedom to do, no matter what it costs anyone else. Otherwise, it's fascism.
I tend to agree with this normally, but think about car insurance as an example...

You are forced to have Liability insurance (minimal insurance which protects OTHERS) on your car. Why? Is this fascist?

Why: Because if you have a problem it affects OTHER PEOPLE........

I do not think this is fascist.


Same with a BASIC very minimal health insurance.....If you do not carry it, it AFFECTS OTHER PEOPLE if you should have a problem.

Therefore, being forced to have very basic coverage in case of a serious problem is not fascist.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:53 PM   #109
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In my understanding the exchanges are just going to be a market where PRIVATE companies products (their health care line etc) can be compared and shopped for by consumers.

The exchange is just a way for private citizens to join together to get group rates, which are cheaper than a lone person.

The 'efficiency' is going to be the private companies issue, and I have faith in private companies that they will compete and find ways to succeed.
One of the biggest problems I have with the exchange system is that government is going to define the minimum acceptable coverage. That's a recipe for constant expansion/inclusion of non-basic, but politically popular coverages (e.g. contraception).

Going back to the concept of free riders in our current system, the basic coverage should just mimic what the uninsured are already afforded. That is, emergency and catastrophic care. Congress and governmental bureaucrats are not competent to decide what types of preventative care and elective care are cost effective. Instead, decisions will be based on politics, with those willing to give the most to those who don't have to pay for it always having the upper hand.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:04 PM   #110
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As people have already noted though, everyone participates in our healthcare system by definition. It's just that some people are getting free, albeit barebones, catastrophic insurance while everyone else is paying for it.
This is just not true. It's also a sweeping generality.

I had catastrophic under self-employment insurance, when I had it.
No one else paid for my participation in healthcare with this kind of insurance, because I paid for all my uses before any high deductible kicked in. When it did, for maternity, I paid the $6,000 deductible plus. Many well-off people prefer this type of insurance, but they pay for all the lesser health care. This is true insurance.

Quote:
I'm not going to call these people leechers, because they're just playing by the current rules of the game, but there is a percentage of them who would buy (at least catastrophic) insurance if they knew that going without coverage would mean no care at all in the event of an unforeseen accident.
Well you did imply they are leeches and it's just not true. There are people who have catastrophic because they can afford the higher deductibles. So they are not leeching. It is true insurance this way. Otherwise, people won't pay for any of their own healthcare. This is the level of responsibility of many Americans today.

Quote:
In theory at least, bringing those people into the system is no different than forcing people to pay for the local fire department through the tax system.
Well, you do get designated a NeoCon for a reason, pat. Clearly this is a case. People with just catastrophic insurance are already in the system by their own free choice. They do not need to be brought in. Futhermore, you're not "bringing" anyone... you are coercing them. And no, it's not like the local fire department because it's national legislation from the central govt making it fascism.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:07 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
In my understanding the exchanges are just going to be a market where PRIVATE companies products (their health care line etc) can be compared and shopped for by consumers.

The exchange is just a way for private citizens to join together to get group rates, which are cheaper than a lone person.

The 'efficiency' is going to be the private companies issue, and I have faith in private companies that they will compete and find ways to succeed.
In order to set up exchanges, there will undoubtedly be systems and processes, and because you have one central entity managing over 26 states with entirely different rules and regulations, you have to set up different systems and processes, systems, and IT requirements. Not sure what your career background is or if you've project managed a project like this. But this is a mammoth of a project. Insurance companies have been trying to crack this code for years, and they have experience doing this.

That's only just to get a tool up and running. From there, you have to have service people to troubleshoot, a marketing group to promote and help educate on the tool, data analysts, project managers, finance/ops, strategists, etc... not to mention multiple managers to watch over these things. Worse, because the pay isn't going to be very good, you're going to get lower quality talent unless you contract to a consultancy, which will be expensive.

They have these things in auto insurance. They're called comparative raters. They are very complex technical systems, and there is a heavy strategic component to it. It takes a ton of people and resources to build these systems (especially across state lines) and to maintain them.

I don't think exchanges are a bad idea. Transparent pricing is a good thing and did revolutionize the car insurance industry. But politicians are NOT business people. I can guarantee you the cost of stupidity and waste is going to be off the charts. I am upset that they didn't instead consider a trigger-based option, which I think was on the table. They should have given private sector insurers 5 years or so to come up with a solution of their own. They would have done it cheaper, more efficiently, and more effectively.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #112
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I tend to agree with this normally, but think about car insurance as an example...
Car insurance is not apples to apples. It's done by state and New Hampshire does not mandate care insurance. They do revoke licenses if you cannot pay the damages of the other party. If you have a bad record they will mandate it. Not does Wisconsin mandate car insurance. You also have to be able to pay for the other party's damages.

Quote:
You are forced to have Liability insurance (minimal insurance which protects OTHERS) on your car. Why? Is this fascist?

Why: Because if you have a problem it affects OTHER PEOPLE........

I do not think this is fascist.
Yes it is. It's national legislation just for being alive. Driving is a privilege, not a right to exist free, and one is doing the driving on a some kind of govt road.
Might as well demand a license for being alive.


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Same with a BASIC very minimal health insurance.....If you do not carry it, it AFFECTS OTHER PEOPLE if you should have a problem.
That's a collectivist argument. People didn't have it for hundreds of years.

Quote:
Therefore, being forced to have very basic coverage in case of a serious problem is not fascist.
Yes it is. You are coerced just for existing. Furthermore, banning health insurance would make medical care much more affordable. Third party pay systems always drive up costs.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:13 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Car insurance is not apples to apples. It's done by state ...........So are the health insurance exchanges

Yes it is. It's national legislation just for being alive. Driving is a privilege, not a right to exist free, and one is doing the driving on a some kind of govt road.
Healthcare is a right? Oh ok...well that we agree on!


Yes it is. You are coerced just for existing. Everyone gets sick, everyone will need healthcare at some point....its not the 'existing' part that we are talking about.....just like being taxed to have a fire dept. but you manage to live your life without ever burning your house down and never need them...you got taxed 'just for existing'
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:14 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
This is just not true. It's also a sweeping generality.
It is true, you just don't understand what I said.

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I had catastrophic under self-employment insurance, when I had it.
No one else paid for my participation in healthcare with this kind of insurance, because I paid for all my uses before any high deductible kicked in. When it did, for maternity, I paid the $6,000 deductible plus. Many well-off people prefer this type of insurance, but they pay for all the lesser health care. This is true insurance.
This is where you make it clear that you didn't understand. I'm talking about people who don't carry any actual insurance at all, not people like you who pay for a catastrophic policy. People who don't carry any insurance at all, will still get barebones emergency and catastrophic care despite not having insurance to cover it. Those people are effectively getting a free catastrophic policy and you and everyone else who buys insurance are paying for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well you did imply they are leeches and it's just not true. There are people who have catastrophic because they can afford the higher deductibles. So they are not leeching. It is true insurance this way. Otherwise, people won't pay for any of their own healthcare. This is the level of responsibility of many Americans today.



Well, you do get designated a NeoCon for a reason, pat. Clearly this is a case. People with just catastrophic insurance are already in the system by their own free choice. They do not need to be brought in. Futhermore, you're not "bringing" anyone... you are coercing them. And no, it's not like the local fire department because it's national legislation from the central govt making it fascism.
The reason you call me a neocon is that you don't understand what neocon means any more than you understood what my post was about.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:19 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It is true, you just don't understand what it means.
This is what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu
As people have already noted though, everyone participates in our healthcare system by definition. It's just that some people are getting free, albeit barebones, catastrophic insurance while everyone else is paying for it.
Catastrophic aka bare bones was mentioned as being "free" somehow by you.

Quote:
This is where you make it clear that you didn't understand. I'm talking about people who don't carry any actual insurance at all, not people like you who pay for a catastrophic policy. People who don't carry any insurance at all, will still get barebones emergency and catastrophic care despite not having insurance to cover it. Those people are effectively getting a free catastrophic policy and you and everyone else who buys insurance are paying for it.

Well this is clearer than your first comment.

Now why are they getting it free? Due to another govt mandate for emergency care.


Quote:
The reason you call me a neocon is that you don't understand what neocon means any more than you understood what my post was about.
Yes I do. You don't understand it. You made what was essentially a collectivist argument for a national health insurance mandate. That's not part of limited govt philosophy, free trade or free markets. Furthermore, mandates drive up costs too. They push the demand curve.

BTW, not everybody participates in our allopathic health care system either. They refuse it for alternative medicine.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:27 PM   #116
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Health care exchanges is nothing but a federal mandate that is unfunded.
Healthcare is a service, not a right. You misunderstood that.
Your points are not relevant to my point on fascism. It's a federal mandate ( not a tax per Roberts ) on individual just for existing.
You used the word "everyone" which is a collectivist argument. Everyone eats food too. I don't see the govt mandating that we do for that...and that can affect us as well.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:32 PM   #117
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Your points are not relevant to my point on fascism. Healthcare is a service, not a right.
well then if it isn't a right, then it is more like car insurance....People without car insurance ****ed everything up for the people with cars, so now you are REQUIRED to have car insurance


People without health insurance are ****ing it up for the rest of us BECAUSE THEY STILL GET HEALTH CARE. Its just that you and I pay for their health care in many ways. Higher insurance costs and higher doctor bills and ER bills among them.


So, JUST LIKE AUTO INSURANCE , fire department taxes, police dept taxes, road taxes etc...... everyone now needs to participate in some kind of minimal, basic coverage so your neighbor doesn't get ****ed by your bill......

I'm sorry you don't get the connection between types of insurance....it really is not that difficult of a concept. Maybe you need some rest and to take your meds?
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:32 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Everyone eats food too. I don't see the govt mandating that we do for that...
Oh you don't see any federal / state / local tax money being used for food / nutrition entitlement programs?

LOL

Blind?
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:35 PM   #119
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Oh you don't see any federal taxes for food entitlement programs?

LOL

Blind?
That's a strawman argument. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about mandating that someone eat food or buy food. I don't know of program forcing people to eat or buy food.

But I am opposed to food entitlement programs as well. Nothing in the Constitution for special interest group legislation. I am for temporary aid at the state level—just not national. And only if a person applies for it on their own will.
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BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:37 PM   #120
Pawnmower Pawnmower is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That's a strawman argument.
Oh shut up YOU were the one who brought up food.....I attacked your argument.

You are so ****ing stupid it is painful.
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Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.Pawnmower is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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