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View Poll Results: Will these steps benefit you or your family?
No pre-existing conditions. 18 34.62%
No cap on benefits. 16 30.77%
Insurance companies can't drop you or your family if they get sick. 14 26.92%
Carrying your kids on your health insurance until the age of 26. 11 21.15%
Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of all revenue on healthcare. If they go over, we get a refund. 18 34.62%
More preventive services will be free. 16 30.77%
Screw Obamacare 33 63.46%
Gaz says I'm indifferent 3 5.77%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-03-2013, 08:06 PM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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Will these Obamacare steps benefit you or your family?

Will these steps benefit you or your family?

  1. No pre-existing conditions.
  2. No cap on benefits. If I or a member of my family need to battle cancer, they will get the help they need.
  3. Insurance companies can't drop me or my family if we get sick.
  4. Carrying your kids on your health insurance until the age of 26.
  5. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of all revenue on healthcare. If they go over, we get a refund.
  6. A shitload of preventive services will be free. Googled the list.http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskf...uspsabrecs.htm

Spin off from another thread. Going to make this a private poll
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:38 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post

So, JUST LIKE AUTO INSURANCE , fire department taxes, police dept taxes, road taxes etc...... everyone now needs to participate in some kind of minimal, basic coverage so your neighbor doesn't get ****ed by your bill......
NOPE

You fail to distinguish between the states and the national govt. The mandate is national socialism.
Federalist #45 applies to my argument. YOU are centralizing more power and over the everyday lives of individuals.
Your making a collectivist stand when you mention how it affects everyone else.
It's no different than saying, everyone benefits when there are government schools.

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I'm sorry you don't get the connection between types of insurance....it really is not that difficult of a concept. Maybe you need some rest and to take your meds?
This is a logical fallacy. Thank you for conceding your inability to make the connection I am stating or refuting it.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:40 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
NOPE

You fail to distinguish between the states and the national govt. The mandate is national socialism.
YOU were the one who did that. The statres are FREE to set up the exchanges how they want to.

Or they can opt out, and let the feds set up the exchanges...

or they can collaborate with the feds if they want to

This has nothing to do with national socialism , the insurance companies are still private...

Wow.....
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:41 PM   #123
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Federalist #45
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa45.htm
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:43 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
YOU were the one who did that. The statres are FREE to set up the exchanges how they want to.

Or they can opt out, and let the feds set up the exchanges...

or they can collaborate with the feds if they want to

This has nothing to do with national socialism , the insurance companies are still private...

Wow.....
No, because if they don't then the Federal govt has to pay for them. So it's still originating from the central govt and that's where it's being called for as a matter of law.
It is not the same as car insurance either....as that is driving on state property whether it's federal or state or local.


If the insurance companies are still private, but there is a mandate that by definition makes it fascism ( aka national socialism). A single-payer would be socialism.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #125
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Not exactly. If you don't have a car, you don't have to have car insurance.

Otherwise, I agree with your point. I don't know the answer on how you fix it. Insurance is about pooling money and it's insurance 101 that the more people in the pool, the cheaper it is for everybody.

There is an option where you can outright deny "free" care to anyone who doesn't have insurance. But I don't think anybody wants that option.

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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
well then if it isn't a right, then it is more like car insurance....People without car insurance ****ed everything up for the people with cars, so now you are REQUIRED to have car insurance


People without health insurance are ****ing it up for the rest of us BECAUSE THEY STILL GET HEALTH CARE. Its just that you and I pay for their health care in many ways. Higher insurance costs and higher doctor bills and ER bills among them.


So, JUST LIKE AUTO INSURANCE , fire department taxes, police dept taxes, road taxes etc...... everyone now needs to participate in some kind of minimal, basic coverage so your neighbor doesn't get ****ed by your bill......

I'm sorry you don't get the connection between types of insurance....it really is not that difficult of a concept. Maybe you need some rest and to take your meds?
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
This is what you said:



Catastrophic aka bare bones was mentioned as being "free" somehow by you.




Well this is clearer than your first comment.
Glad to see you're up to speed now.

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Now why are they getting it free? Due to another govt mandate for emergency care.
I understand that, but let's deal with reality here and realize that that isn't going away. That's our baseline.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:16 PM   #127
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Congress and governmental bureaucrats are not competent to decide what types of preventative care and elective care are cost effective. Instead, decisions will be based on politics, with those willing to give the most to those who don't have to pay for it always having the upper hand.
Right now its the insurances companies dictating what is available. Since they will gain monetarily if less preventive services are covered, they are definitely not the ones who should decide. but thats exactly who does now.

The preventive care list is done and decided. The link is in the opening post.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:26 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Right now its the insurances companies dictating what is available. Since they will gain monetarily if less preventive services are covered, they are definitely not the ones who should decide. but thats exactly who does now.

The preventive care list is done and decided. The link is in the opening post.
Right now the market decides what needs to be covered, whether its by companies deciding which plans to offer their employees or by individuals in the individual market. Putting government in charge of dictating minimum standards is a terrible idea because it inevitably leads to standards inflation and consumers end up with more expensive policies covering types of care they have no want or need of.

The problem is the interests of those who benefit are huge and concentrated while the interests of consumers are small and dispersed. For instance, acupuncturists will stand to gain enormously if insurance is forced by law to cover their work, and so they will lobby whatever legislature or bureaucracy you put in charge of setting standards. Consumers won't notice the extra few dollars they have to pay each month, and so more and more things get to be considered part of a "minimum standard". Its a big problem.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:45 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Right now the market decides what needs to be covered, whether its by companies deciding which plans to offer their employees or by individuals in the individual market. Putting government in charge of dictating minimum standards is a terrible idea because it inevitably leads to standards inflation and consumers end up with more expensive policies covering types of care they have no want or need of.

The problem is the interests of those who benefit are huge and concentrated while the interests of consumers are small and dispersed. For instance, acupuncturists will stand to gain enormously if insurance is forced by law to cover their work, and so they will lobby whatever legislature or bureaucracy you put in charge of setting standards. Consumers won't notice the extra few dollars they have to pay each month, and so more and more things get to be considered part of a "minimum standard". Its a big problem.
All of this! Chiropractic quackery is already going to be covered by this crap. You may as well ****ing cover crystal therapy or some other voodoo nonsense. It's depressing.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:53 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Right now its the insurances companies dictating what is available. Since they will gain monetarily if less preventive services are covered, they are definitely not the ones who should decide. but thats exactly who does now.

The preventive care list is done and decided. The link is in the opening post.
Add me to the FD ditto list.

It's never done and decided as long as the government reserves the right to make changes, which is to say forever.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:11 PM   #131
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Add me to the FD ditto list.

It's never done and decided as long as the government reserves the right to make changes, which is to say forever.
The FD ditto list has been tried for 100+ years. Our healthcare system is for shit. FD's list has failed. It has failed so miserably that we got Obamacare.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:24 PM   #132
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The FD ditto list has been tried for 100+ years. Our healthcare system is for shit. FD's list has failed. It has failed so miserably that we got Obamacare.
That's not what has failed. That's like saying the internal combustion engine is the reason for the Edsel's failure.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:09 PM   #133
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This kind of short term thinking is why we have to implement ideas like Obama Care by force

the insurance pool currently has too many sick people, and not enough young and healthy people

forcing all of the healthy, young people into the insurance pool is seems to be the only way to spread the risk enough to lower prices
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:38 AM   #134
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Glad to see you're up to speed now.
No pat, it was how you communicated it. So you got up to speed.
People with catastrophic care, are able to pay for the less expensive treatments and do not leech.


Quote:
I understand that, but let's deal with reality here and realize that that isn't going away. That's our baseline.
Well, this goes exactly to my point. You're tossing in the white flag and are now advocating central planning of a major portion of our economy because it's practical. It's very arguable that it's even practical.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:44 AM   #135
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Right now its the insurances companies dictating what is available.
I don't know if you can read what was covered or not already, but this is just disinformation. The govt since the 1970's has been dictating to insurance companies what they have to cover with 2000 or so mandates. They then pass along the costs. They make more money.

In a free-market, if we had one, you don't know what choices or options they would make available—for a fee. No one ever expected life insurance to be offered to elderly folks, yet, the insurance markets, eventually offered it.

You and I have an influence on what insurance will offer to a good degree. Afterall, they can't go out of business or there wouldn't be any so they're not going to destroy themselves either. Instead you govt lovers would rather destroy an economy and the budget. This is EXACTLY why you want a govt solution.

Quote:
Since they will gain monetarily if less preventive services are covered, they are definitely not the ones who should decide. but thats exactly who does now.

The preventive care list is done and decided. The link is in the opening post.
That's what Kennedy's HMO Act f 1973 was supposed to do. Did it work? No.

You rely on cliche economic information regarding healthcare markets.
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