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View Poll Results: Will these steps benefit you or your family?
No pre-existing conditions. 18 34.62%
No cap on benefits. 16 30.77%
Insurance companies can't drop you or your family if they get sick. 14 26.92%
Carrying your kids on your health insurance until the age of 26. 11 21.15%
Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of all revenue on healthcare. If they go over, we get a refund. 18 34.62%
More preventive services will be free. 16 30.77%
Screw Obamacare 33 63.46%
Gaz says I'm indifferent 3 5.77%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-03-2013, 07:06 PM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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Will these Obamacare steps benefit you or your family?

Will these steps benefit you or your family?

  1. No pre-existing conditions.
  2. No cap on benefits. If I or a member of my family need to battle cancer, they will get the help they need.
  3. Insurance companies can't drop me or my family if we get sick.
  4. Carrying your kids on your health insurance until the age of 26.
  5. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of all revenue on healthcare. If they go over, we get a refund.
  6. A shitload of preventive services will be free. Googled the list.http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskf...uspsabrecs.htm

Spin off from another thread. Going to make this a private poll
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:59 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
So are you serious or do you not actually understand insurance pools and group rates versus individual rates?

Have you ever had to shop for a health plan?

The details of how your position is supported within OC....back on the subject ....As you said, you favor looking at the details. Rock on big boy. Lets see the details.
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:00 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
So are you serious or do you not actually understand insurance pools and group rates versus individual rates?

Have you ever had to shop for a health plan?
I think it would be interesting to hear Velvet's opinion on what's currently wrong with the individual market and whether Obamacare properly addresses those concerns or whether he thinks an alternative would be better.
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:05 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
He's responding directly to the original post. That's not cherry picking, that's staying focused on the topic. To the extent any cherry picking took place, it was BigRedChief who started the thread.
thats actually true...I guess I got lost in the details of the thread and forgot about the op's points
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:06 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I think it would be interesting to hear Velvet's opinion on what's currently wrong with the individual market and whether Obamacare properly addresses those concerns or whether he thinks an alternative would be better.
i'd love to hear him tear apart the list of things I submitted after BRC's post
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:28 AM   #170
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Nothing about exchanges?
What about the exchanges? Have you never heard of an independent insurance agent? Insurance exchanges are nothing but a government ran insurance agency. It’s a marketing tool. Except you get a government “agent” (read website) instead of an insurance professional. Would you rather have an insurance professional whose business is built on good service and good advice and who has established relationships (and power) with many insurance companies or would you rather a website, or even worse, a government agent?

Exchanges are a drummed up solution to a non existent problem.
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Nothing about bringing everyone into the pool, even healthy young people?
Except for the people whom are under age 27 and can get insurance through a parent or guardian. Except for the people who will not pay the premiums. Except for the people who will not file a tax return to avoid the penalty “tax”. Except for the young people who cannot get insurance through their parents and don’t have 9k lying around to pay the yearly premiums. Are these the people you are talking about?

By the way, these are the same people that the ACA was supposed to help.

And on another note. Non-disabled non-student dependents under the age of 27 cannot be claimed as a dependent in any other government programs. The parent cannot claim them on there taxes or other legal documents. All the parents get to do is pay the extra premiums, which are currently nominal and have little effect on the pool of funds. Get ready for dependent premiums to increase.

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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Nothing about standardizing plans and language so that consumers can easily switch / shop?
This is another drummed up problem that was already solved. You do realize that all states require the insurance company to submit a master policy which includes the language that the state requires the insurance company to use in its plan documents? You do realize that each state requires that specific and consistent language be used between different insurance companies so there is no ambiguity between plans? You do realize that carriers routinely have to adjust plan documents to comply with changing laws and regulations as mandated by the state? You do realize that almost all insurance companies documents are exactly the same within a state and what changes is the richness or combination of benefit that differentiate the carriers based on their target market. Of course you realize that.

And on the “switching insurance” issue. There is nothing keeping anyone in any plan. Insureds and groups can switch from plan to plan within an insurance carrier or to a different carrier. The reason why individuals don’t switch is because they have to satisfy new deductibles and out of pocket expenses. The reason groups don’t switch is the same as individuals except they are also try to keep their expenses static. It’s also expensive to switch. Most group plans allow what’s called “Takeover Credit” which will credit the insureds for meeting their deductible/OOP in there previous plan.

What part of ACA did anything to help this? If you don’t want to research this I will give you the answer. It doesn’t.
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Nothing about currently isolated individuals banning together to have the power to negotriate group rates at various different companies?
Another solved issue that apparently needed re-solved. Have you ever heard of METs– Multiple Employer’s Trusts? The term MET is kind of a misnomer because it can be any type group, not specifically a group of employers. It can be a professional group, a religious group, ancestral group. Any type of group. The reason I reference MET is because these are the rules that the group must play by.

The METs that my company has set up charge $1.00 per year to be a member. That is because the law requires some type of membership fee in the states that we have METs. These METs are used to lower premium expenses for a pre-determined set of benefits. They work fabulously for both the insured and the carrier.

Yet another issue the ACA refixes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
I mean what good is your analysis really, when you fail to even address the things that will help the majority of people the most?

Your analysis is stuck on some tangental details and not looking at the core, big picture ideas.
I was responding to the issues listed by the poll, not the issues not listed in the poll. Additionally, I specifically addressed the issues that the ACA screws up, not the re-fixes and non-issues that were wrapped up in the marketing campaign that brought us the ACA.

But that’s OK, at least the leftist got their way and got government controlled healthcare. Get ready for the butt hurt when this thing is fully implementing.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:42 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Velvet_Jones View Post
What about the exchanges? Have you never heard of an independent insurance agent? Insurance exchanges are nothing but a government ran insurance agency. It’s a marketing tool. Except you get a government “agent” (read website) instead of an insurance professional. Would you rather have an insurance professional whose business is built on good service and good advice and who has established relationships (and power) with many insurance companies or would you rather a website, or even worse, a government agent?

Exchanges are a drummed up solution to a non existent problem.

Except for the people whom are under age 27 and can get insurance through a parent or guardian. Except for the people who will not pay the premiums. Except for the people who will not file a tax return to avoid the penalty “tax”. Except for the young people who cannot get insurance through their parents and don’t have 9k lying around to pay the yearly premiums. Are these the people you are talking about?

By the way, these are the same people that the ACA was supposed to help.

And on another note. Non-disabled non-student dependents under the age of 27 cannot be claimed as a dependent in any other government programs. The parent cannot claim them on there taxes or other legal documents. All the parents get to do is pay the extra premiums, which are currently nominal and have little effect on the pool of funds. Get ready for dependent premiums to increase.


This is another drummed up problem that was already solved. You do realize that all states require the insurance company to submit a master policy which includes the language that the state requires the insurance company to use in its plan documents? You do realize that each state requires that specific and consistent language be used between different insurance companies so there is no ambiguity between plans? You do realize that carriers routinely have to adjust plan documents to comply with changing laws and regulations as mandated by the state? You do realize that almost all insurance companies documents are exactly the same within a state and what changes is the richness or combination of benefit that differentiate the carriers based on their target market. Of course you realize that.

And on the “switching insurance” issue. There is nothing keeping anyone in any plan. Insureds and groups can switch from plan to plan within an insurance carrier or to a different carrier. The reason why individuals don’t switch is because they have to satisfy new deductibles and out of pocket expenses. The reason groups don’t switch is the same as individuals except they are also try to keep their expenses static. It’s also expensive to switch. Most group plans allow what’s called “Takeover Credit” which will credit the insureds for meeting their deductible/OOP in there previous plan.

What part of ACA did anything to help this? If you don’t want to research this I will give you the answer. It doesn’t


Another solved issue that apparently needed re-solved. Have you ever heard of METs– Multiple Employer’s Trusts? The term MET is kind of a misnomer because it can be any type group, not specifically a group of employers. It can be a professional group, a religious group, ancestral group. Any type of group. The reason I reference MET is because these are the rules that the group must play by.

The METs that my company has set up charge $1.00 per year to be a member. That is because the law requires some type of membership fee in the states that we have METs. These METs are used to lower premium expenses for a pre-determined set of benefits. They work fabulously for both the insured and the carrier.

Yet another issue the ACA refixes.


I was responding to the issues listed by the poll, not the issues not listed in the poll. Additionally, I specifically addressed the issues that the ACA screws up, not the re-fixes and non-issues that were wrapped up in the marketing campaign that brought us the ACA.

But that’s OK, at least the leftist got their way and got government controlled healthcare. Get ready for the butt hurt when this thing is fully implementing.
What ALWAYS happens with government solutions to private issues, especially fascist/socialist solutions.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:48 AM
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:04 AM   #172
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Two major problems with individual insurance market place:

Pre-existing conditions:
The insurance industry calls this “Anti-selection”. Simply put, not getting insurance until you have an illness (gaming the system) OR increasing your benefits only when you get sick. Lets use a different, less emotional way to describe this.

Pawnmower buys a car. He decides that instead of buying insurance for the car to protect his investment, he would rather have new wheels and a killer stereo. So he spends his money on those things. Then some stupid deer runs out in front of him in a rabid yet successful suicide attempt. The front of Pawnmower’s car is totaled. Pawnmower then goes to his insurance agent and asks to insure his car in order to get his car fixed.

Select the correct answer:

[ ] Pawnmower is successful in getting welfare from the insurance agent.
[ ] Pawnmower is successful in getting insurance from the insurance agent.
[ ] Pawnmower is successful in suing the family of the deer and was fully reimbursed for his loss.
[ ] Pawnmower has been screwed by a killer stereo and badass 20s.
[X] Pawnmower has screwed himself.

Although it sucks that Pawnmower has screwed himself, but, it was Pawnmower that screwed himself. Life decisions have consequences. I think I heard an anti-smoker zealot say that once. This is reality and reality sucks sometimes.

Tying that back into healthcare, there is consequences to not having insurance. It is not risk free. If you get sick, you have screwed yourself. Now government programs are already in place for people in these situations as far as healthcare goes. It’s called Medicaid. Medicaid programs are run by each state and have differing rules and limits. Most Medicaid programs recoup losses by confiscating any estate holdings after the person and their spouse are deceased.

How does the ACA fix this reality? It doesn’t.

Management Expenses:
It is far more efficient managing non-healthcare related expenses when managing a group then it is managing a bunch of individuals. It’s economies of scale. Just on premium billing and reporting requirements alone. For a group of 1000 people, an insurance company deals with one premium bill and one roster of insureds and dependents. For 1000 individual insureds the insurance company deals with 1000 premium bills and 1000 roster of dependents.

There are many other expenses that are simply not there on group business that are on individual coverage.

How does the ACA fix this reality? It doesn’t.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:09 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Velvet_Jones View Post
Get ready for the butt hurt when this thing is fully implementing.
Theres plenty of butt hurt now...

I'd prefer to see the plan get some time to work (or not) and then decide what course to take from there...

I'm honestly tired of the pre-butthurt coming from both sides , where no matter what, you can expect butthurt coming purely based on partisanship.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:11 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Velvet_Jones View Post
[X] Pawnmower has screwed himself. (AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE PROCESS)

Although it sucks that Pawnmower has screwed himself, but, it was Pawnmower that screwed himself. Life decisions have consequences. I think I heard an anti-smoker zealot say that once. This is reality and reality sucks sometimes.
Excpet for the fact that under your example, i could walk into the Emergency STereo ROom and just have them fix up everything and send you the billl anyway...screwing all my neighbors

The whole problem with examples like these is that one is denied health care, its just that everyone else pays for it anyway...and at higher costs through the ER and Cures rather than GP and prevention
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:15 PM   #175
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What about the exchanges? Have you never heard of an independent insurance agent? Insurance exchanges are nothing but a government ran insurance agency. It’s a marketing tool. Except you get a government “agent” (read website) instead of an insurance professional. Would you rather have an insurance professional whose business is built on good service and good advice and who has established relationships (and power) with many insurance companies or would you rather a website, or even worse, a government agent?
I would rather use the new form of exchanges yes....Through an independent agent I cannot get a group rate currently. Also, the options I have through my agent are very very limited. I want more options and more buying power.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:17 PM   #176
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Except for the people whom are under age 27 and can get insurance through a parent or guardian. .
So are you saying getting 27 though 35 year olds into the pool is a bad thing? Or are you agreeing that it is a good idea to get younger , healthier people into the pool?
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:45 PM   #177
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extremely slanted poll.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:44 PM   #178
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extremely slanted poll.
It's a spin off from a post in another thread where I said the things in the poll have value to me. It's not suppose to be a "fair" poll. Just are these things good or not.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:12 PM   #179
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So are you saying getting 27 though 35 year olds into the pool is a bad thing? Or are you agreeing that it is a good idea to get younger , healthier people into the pool?
I'm opposed to Obamacare and these forced exchanges, but yeah, I don't understand this point either. It defeats the whole purpose of insurance, especially if 27 year olds can still get ER care even if they're uninsured.

There has to be a way to get these young people into the insurance pool. Otherwise, they're basically freeriders.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:05 AM   #180
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So are you saying getting 27 though 35 year olds into the pool is a bad thing? Or are you agreeing that it is a good idea to get younger , healthier people into the pool?
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying they are already in the pool. The vast majority of people in that age range have insurance already are not "added" to the pool but rather "remain" in the pool. You act like people 27-35 never have insurance. I'm saying most do.
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