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Old 07-12-2013, 10:59 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Why My Brain Is On Fire

Comprehensive immigration reform.

That's it. That's why my brain is on fire.

You have:

1. A fair bill to have emerged from the Senate, with a huge majority.

2. A POTUS who would sign this thing in a heartbeat.

3. A House that, if this bill were to come up for a vote today, would easily pass with unanimous Democratic support and solid moderate Republican support.

4. Huge majorities of Americans that favor stronger border protection and path to citizenships.

5. The demographic future of the Republican Party potentially on the line.

And somehow, some way, this bill will not become law. Because the House won't even put it up for a vote.

For the most trite reason of all: because not enough Republicans support it. Even though it would certainly pass if it a vote was held. Even though it's conventional wisdom suggests this could cost them latino voters for a generation. Even though the public voted for Democrats over Republicans for POTUS, the Senate, and the House. And the only reason the Republicans have the House in the first place is because they gerrymandered themselves into it.

But that's it. The bill will not even get a vote in the House.

Otherwise, it's getting signed this weekend, becomes law of the land, provides this country with a gigantic economic boost, helps bring unprotected millions out of the shadows, drastically cuts into illegal immigration, and provides valentines for DREAMers, high-skilled workers, and others.

But, despite everything, this is not happening.

My brain. Is on fire.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:15 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
And over 80% of democrats support tightened border security. The devil is in the details here.

Real border security or promises subject to change?

Immediate amnesty/citizenship for all or citizenship after a period of years, subject to border security certification, for people with clean records and who learn English?

It's when these details come in to focus that the fault lines are exposed.

Other than the political advantages available, I have no idea why democrats oppose effective border security as a pre-cursor to a reasonable pathway to citizenship for illegals with a clean criminal record.
I think Democrats make the political calculation that pairing border security with the pathway to citizenship makes it more likely to pass. I also think many Democrats don't see a problem with our current border security measures. Unfortunately, I believe Obama is in the second group.

Luckily, the Senate bill contains massive resources and a detailed plan for border security, to such extent that Bob Corker, a big border hawk, has called it "almost overkill", and the border patrol workers are saying much of the same thing.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:21 PM   #92
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD View Post
I think Democrats make the political calculation that pairing border security with the pathway to citizenship makes it more likely to pass. I also think many Democrats don't see a problem with our current border security measures. Unfortunately, I believe Obama is in the second group.

Luckily, the Senate bill contains massive resources and a detailed plan for border security, to such extent that Bob Corker, a big border hawk, has called it "almost overkill", and the border patrol workers are saying much of the same thing.
And the CBO predicts it will only cut illegal immigration by a third or a half.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:25 PM   #93
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Hey mylonsd:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Oh sure. And I'm on record when Bush was president something had to be done. Once the critics concerns that the holes will be plugged as best they can I'll probably be for this one too.
Please restate this. There's a typo or two in here and I want to make sure I understand before I reply.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:32 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Hey mylonsd:



Please restate this. There's a typo or two in here and I want to make sure I understand before I reply.
Yes, that was poor grammar.

Which part? Where I agreed when Bush was president that something had to be done and it wasn't feasible to kick 11 million people out?

Or that if the senate bill is modified to better stop illegal immigration I'd probably be in favor of it.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:34 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
My point exactly. You are just exercising it on legislation you don't like.

So let's focus on why you don't like it, rather than exercising bullshit excuses you normally don't care about.
I thought your point was that this legislation was indisputably good for the economy, the country and the GOP and that your brain was on fire that such a well aligned piece of legislation wasn't going to become law.

Do you acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons to oppose this legislation that have nothing to do with xenophobia or racism?
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:35 PM   #96
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Yes, that was poor grammar.

Which part? Where I agreed when Bush was president that something had to be done and it wasn't feasible to kick 11 million people out?

Or that if the senate bill is modified to better stop illegal immigration I'd probably be in favor of it.
Do you believe that legislation should contain compromise?

This bill may not suit your border enforcement means. Fine, I get that.

This bill doesn't fit a lot of liberals' path to citizenship means.

We live with compromise. The House GOP, and potentially yourself, doesn't.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:36 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
And the CBO predicts it will only cut illegal immigration by a third or a half.
The CBO doesn't actually predict that, they assume it. They analyze legislation for effects on government revenues, outlays, and economic indicators, but aren't set up to analyze the effect of different border measures on the likely rate of successful illegal crossings.

But while we are on the subject, using their assumption that illegal immigration decreases by half, the CBO does estimater that the bill will grow the economy and cut the deficit by almost a trillion dollars.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:38 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Do you acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons to oppose this legislation that have nothing to do with xenophobia or racism?
I believe any legitimate reasons to oppose this bill come from a complete lack of willingness to compromise or meet in the middle.

If you do have an ability to compromise, or willingness to meet in the middle, than there is no legitimate reason to oppose this bill.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:39 PM   #99
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
But while we are on the subject, using their assumption that illegal immigration decreases by half, the CBO does estimater that the bill will grow the economy and cut the deficit by almost a trillion dollars.
My brain is on fire.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:39 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
The bill includes extensive language and funds dedicated to siphoning down illegal immigration.
I think it's pretty clear that a large group of people who happen to be sitting on the critical path for this legislation don't trust that that language will turn into results. I don't blame them.

So explain to me what the downside is for making border security results a pre-requisite for a second phase in which illegals are provided with a pathway to citizenship or otherwise legalized.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:43 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I believe any legitimate reasons to oppose this bill come from a complete lack of willingness to compromise or meet in the middle.

If you do have an ability to compromise, or willingness to meet in the middle, than there is no legitimate reason to oppose this bill.
Sometimes, meeting in the middle isn't really a compromise. I guess it depends on what you consider the middle. And you didn't answer my question.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:43 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
The CBO doesn't actually predict that, they assume it. They analyze legislation for effects on government revenues, outlays, and economic indicators, but aren't set up to analyze the effect of different border measures on the likely rate of successful illegal crossings.

But while we are on the subject, using their assumption that illegal immigration decreases by half, the CBO does estimater that the bill will grow the economy and cut the deficit by almost a trillion dollars.
And 20 years from now we'll be back arguing about it again.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:46 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Do you believe that legislation should contain compromise?

This bill may not suit your border enforcement means. Fine, I get that.

This bill doesn't fit a lot of liberals' path to citizenship means.

We live with compromise. The House GOP, and potentially yourself, doesn't.
Keeping on topic, if my house and garage are on fire I would hope the fire department doesn't show up and just put out the garage fire and then leave.

It appears to me you are the one that doesn't want compromise.
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