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Old 08-11-2013, 03:24 PM  
Bambi Bambi is offline
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Religious weirdos have to be rescued at sea

And Obama is still the bad guy, lol

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
uh no...sets you free from what?
...Free from the chains that currently bind your mind.

...You must undertake the journey before the path is revealed.

...From the frog's eye, the world is convexed.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:06 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
...Free from the chains

Satans 101 since his fall....sounds like it hurts.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:03 AM   #48
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Again, I'm more interested in why people believe that. It makes God seem petty and self conscious and human.
Believe what?

The devil is trying to get (TEMPT) Jesus to throw himself off of a mountain.....and Jesus refused...

Read the next verse...

Then the Devil tempts Jesus in other ways...

If you believe in the free will doctrine, what do you think would happen to Jesus if he threw himself off the mountain?

Why would Jesus test God for a petty purpose "just to see" if he could survive a tumble down the mountain all because the Devil asked him to?


If you believe there is an afterlife, or heaven...why would you end your life or kill yourself "just to test" the theory?



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6and saith to him, ‘If Son thou art of God — cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.’
7Jesus said to him again, ‘It hath been written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.’
8Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, 9and saith to him, ‘All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.’ 10Then saith Jesus to him, ‘Go — Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.’ 11Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Believe what?

The devil is trying to get (TEMPT) Jesus to throw himself off of a mountain.....and Jesus refused...

Read the next verse...

Then the Devil tempts Jesus in other ways...

If you believe in the free will doctrine, what do you think would happen to Jesus if he threw himself off the mountain?

Why would Jesus test God for a petty purpose "just to see" if he could survive a tumble down the mountain all because the Devil asked him to?


If you believe there is an afterlife, or heaven...why would you end your life or kill yourself "just to test" the theory?
Belief that you shouldn't tempt God. I find the concept utterly silly, and nobody seems to have any explanation for why it would be necessary, other than pointing out another scripture confirming it.

From my understanding, the devil is challenging Jesus's faith. Jesus is saying "No, I have faith, I just can't really demonstrate that faith in certain ways, like what you're asking." Which includes any manner that would absolutely require direct divine intervention. That seems to be conveniently off the table, despite being told in numerous ways that faith can do anything, even move mountains. But yet, here's one very clear example of where faith can't be depended on and there's no explanation for why. The only explanation is "Well duh, you shouldn't try that." It's just a convenient way of saying "Well God is there you can trust in that, but you can't try anything to that would actually physically reveal his presence, because he won't."

The fact that you admit to yourself that God wouldn't actually save you if you jumped off a building, should be an internal indicator that your belief and faith has very real and defined limits. But believers just completely ignore that and have no justification for why they do, other than saying "Welp.... faith.." How do you look that fact in the face, and still tell yourself "He wouldn't physically save me from danger when I needed it, but that other stuff is still totally legit."

And for the record, I don't really believe in the free will doctrine. It simply doesn't add up. If free will exists, then God cannot be omniscient. And vice versa. There's just no way to logically pair the two.

If you believe there actually is an afterlife of eternal bliss, then why bother with this Earthly shithole in the first place? Why wouldn't you want to leave and go to heavenly utopia as soon as possible?
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
And for the record, I don't really believe in the free will doctrine. It simply doesn't add up. If free will exists, then God cannot be omniscient. And vice versa. There's just no way to logically pair the two.
Your logic is failing, or you simply don't know what omniscient means...

It means you KNOW everything, not control every little aspect or detail...

For example, if there was a God, and he created everything....he couldve created the SYSTEM (physics , evolution etc....)and be able to see the outcome (know the outcome) but not CONTROL all of the individual atoms or molecules, right?

I don't see how you are coming to the conclusion that free will and God being omniscient are mutually exclusive....but maybe I am missing part of your argument?
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:44 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Why wouldn't you want to leave and go to heavenly utopia as soon as possible?
Well that is a question I believe all seekers grapple with.

For me it is to spread joy and smiles and happiness and try and serve others and help my family as well (during the short time on Earth).

Thats the whole point free will, IMO.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:01 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Your logic is failing, or you simply don't know what omniscient means...

It means you KNOW everything, not control every little aspect or detail...

For example, if there was a God, and he created everything....he couldve created the SYSTEM (physics , evolution etc....)and be able to see the outcome (know the outcome) but not CONTROL all of the individual atoms or molecules, right?

I don't see how you are coming to the conclusion that free will and God being omniscient are mutually exclusive....but maybe I am missing part of your argument?
Huh? Do you agree that future events are included in knowing everything? If God knows everything, then he already knows what I'm having for dinner next Saturday. Therefore, the free will of choosing my meal is simply an illusion because it's already been predestined. Control of the situation is not necessary, only the knowledge of it. If it's possible that the knowledge of that future event exists, then I'm not really freely choosing I'm simply playing things out according to what was planned, even if you want to say it wasn't necessarily God's plan. Him knowing the future eliminates the possibility of choice, because that outcome is the only one that will occur.

There has been lots of discussion about this idea from minds much brighter than any posting here. You should look into it. Just google "The Free Will argument", and dive down the rabbit hole...
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:07 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Well that is a question I believe all seekers grapple with.

For me it is to spread joy and smiles and happiness and try and serve others and help my family as well (during the short time on Earth).

Thats the whole point free will, IMO.
You don't need religion for that though. It's great if religion brought you to that mindset. Which is why I'm not vehemently against the idea of religion, because I acknowledge that many people do find that in the church. But that's inherent in people regardless of religion.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:12 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Well that is a question I believe all seekers grapple with.

For me it is to spread joy and smiles and happiness and try and serve others and help my family as well (during the short time on Earth).

Thats the whole point free will, IMO.
you got to be kidding
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Old 08-13-2013, 05:46 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Huh? Do you agree that future events are included in knowing everything? If God knows everything, then he already knows what I'm having for dinner next Saturday. Therefore, the free will of choosing my meal is simply an illusion because it's already been predestined.

Just because God knows the future doesn't mean you do not have free will........that is what you fail to grasp.

If you and I are playing chess, and I know what move you are making next....you still have free will and play the move on your own?

If I know my child will fall down the steps, but I allow it to happen so he will learn steps are dangerous.....that is free will of the child, right?

If I know what you are having for dinner next saturday, and you make it, that doesnt mean I took your free will away, right?

What you are saying is simply not a fact. Just because someone KNOWS the outcome of something does not mean that free will didn't take place. Maybe you believe that is the definition, but I do not agree...and I would urge you do to further study on the issue as well.
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Old 08-13-2013, 05:47 PM   #56
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you got to be kidding
hey look it worked!

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Old 08-13-2013, 05:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You don't need religion for that though. It's great if religion brought you to that mindset. Which is why I'm not vehemently against the idea of religion, because I acknowledge that many people do find that in the church. But that's inherent in people regardless of religion.
Oh you totally misunderstood me if you read what I wrote and thought anything even remotely close to the bolded text. You couldnt be more wrong about it , either.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:06 PM   #58
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...I don't really believe in the free will doctrine. It simply doesn't add up...
I figure God exists outside of the constraints of time as we experience and measure it. He is the uncreated creator. He is both the alpha and the omega simultaneously. He identifies himself as I am that I am, always god in the present tense. The past, present and future are all the same to him. He has already seen the next free choice I will make. The choice is mine; All creation is his. His is a "now" that far exceeds the petty bounds of anything as weak as logic.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:11 PM   #59
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If you believe there actually is an afterlife of eternal bliss, then why bother with this Earthly shithole in the first place? Why wouldn't you want to leave and go to heavenly utopia as soon as possible?
My kids like to eat. I think I'll stick around for a while.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:13 PM   #60
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I figure God exists outside of the constraints of time as we experience and measure it. He is the uncreated creator. He is both the alpha and the omega simultaneously. He identifies himself as I am that I am, always god in the present tense. The past, present and future are all the same to him. He has already seen the next free choice I will make. The choice is mine; All creation is his. His is a "now" that far exceeds the petty bounds of anything as weak as logic.
Namaste.
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