News Video of Police shooting man 30+ times - Page 16

Mr. Laz · 08-17-2012, 01:06 PM

Video captures Michigan man's shooting by police
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/16/us/mic...ing/index.html

From Jason Carroll and Sheila Steffen, CNN
updated 10:12 AM EDT, Fri August 17, 2012

Man killed by cops, shot multiple times

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Milton Hall was killed in a confrontation with police in Saginaw, Michigan
"It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," his mother says
Prosecutors and state police are investigating Hall's killing
His family says he was mentally ill and questions why the probe is taking so long

Saginaw, Michigan (CNN) -- Three days before Independence Day, Milton Hall died in a fusillade of police gunfire outside a strip mall.
He had been arguing with officers in a parking lot next to a shuttered Chinese restaurant when he was shot, in full view of passing motorists and while he was holding some sort of knife. Saginaw County Prosecutor Michael Thomas said later that the squad of police confronting him opened fire "because apparently, at this point in time, he was threatening to assault police."

Thomas' office and the Michigan State Police are investigating Hall's death. Saginaw Police Chief Gerald Cliff said Hall was "known to be an assaultive person" with "a long history" of contacts with law enforcement, "not only with police from our department but with the county."
Hall's cousin, Mike Washington, acknowledged Hall had been jailed for minor offenses like vagrancy in the past, but, "He was not violent." And Hall's mother is growing impatient with the probe and questions why police opened fire so furiously on her son, whom she said was mentally ill.

The chart blog: Mental health

"It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," Jewel Hall told CNN from her hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico. "There was another way. They did not have to kill him. He had not done anything. He was not violent. He was not a murderer. He was not a criminal."
Jewel Hall said her son had once trained as a civil right activist, been an avid reader and played football. He had lived in Saginaw for 35 years and received Social Security disability payments for a mental illness, but, "He knew his rights."

"Everybody knew him. The police knew him well," she said. "So that's another question: they knew him, so why? Why did they kill him?"

WJRT: Community questions police shooting

The July 1 shooting happened in a parking lot on West Genessee Avenue, a busy commercial strip on the north side of Saginaw. In a video purchased by CNN, shot by a motorist from across the street, the 49-year-old Hall is seen arguing with a half-dozen officers. For more than three minutes, he walks back and forth, and at one time appears to crouch in a "karate stance," according to the man who captured the scene.

Police said Hall had just had a run-in with a convenience store clerk. On the video, he tells police, "My name is Milton Hall, I just called 911. My name is Milton, and I'm p---ed off." When an officer tells him to put the knife down, he responds, "I ain't putting s--t down." He appears unimpressed by a police dog, telling officers, "Let him go. Let the motherf---ing dog go."

Finally, he turns to the left of the frame, where another officer had moved out of view a short time earlier. It's then that the police open fire with a reported 46 shots in a five-second hail of bullets.
"I'm stunned that six human beings would stand in front of one human being and fire 46 shots," Jewel Hall said. "I just don't understand that. It's a lot of pain in that because it only takes one shot, so the question is why?"

She questioned why none of the cameras in the police cars at the scene recorded the shooting -- "none of them work."

"So that's the question I have and the community has is, what's taking so long?" she said. "Why is not being transparent?"

Lou Palumbo, a former Long Island police officer, told CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" that the video is "a perceptive nightmare" for a police department and could reflect a lack of training by the officers.

"This wasn't a scenario where he was discharging a weapon in their direction," he said.

But Palumbo added that the shooting may yet be determined to be justifiable. "One of the things the public has to understand, an individual wielding a knife at you at about 20 feet can be on top of you in a split second," he said. "The public doesn't know this because they don't do this for a living."

Neither state police nor the prosecutor's office would comment on the investigation. In a written statement to CNN, the state police said, "Our focus is on conducting a complete and thorough investigation, rather than a hasty one."

But Saginaw City Councilman Norman Braddock, who also has criticized the pace of the investigation, said the probe should be a "top priority."
When CNN showed Braddock the video, which he hadn't seen before, he said, "This is disturbing."

"I can see what people are traumatized at, looking at something like that," Braddock said. "We need answers."

Jewel Hall said her family is conducting its own investigation into the shooting, "and at the end of that investigation we will decide what next steps to take with our legal advisors."

DJ's left nut · 08-17-2012, 06:10 PM

So just so I'm clear - 6 trained marksmen that were so calm and collected that they managed to hit someone approximately 20 feet away at about a 20% clip made a conscious, rationale decision to disregard their training and continue shooting when the guy hit the ground? And that it was a lack of intelligence that led to this decision?

Not fear. Not adrenaline. They were just stupid and happened to have a collective bad aim day.

That makes far more sense than the possibility that thousands of years of human evolution created a fight or flight mechanism that these folks couldn't shake off in the span of 4 seconds.

I have seen the light...

**petegz28** · 08-17-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazycoffey

Just to entertain some of the comments in this thread, what's your thoughts on 6 civilians with clean records, and concealed carry permits, are at this strip mall when a nutjob pulls a knife and runs toward an innocent bystander. Said CCW holders all pull and shoot the nutjob in a span of 6 seconds and 46 rounds. No stray bullets hitting other innocents, but each person shoots 6 or 7 rounds.

Personally, I'm on board with city commendations for the civilians, but what do you think from your experience and back ground?

That's a bunk argument. The question is what are your thoughts if those 6 kept shooting the guy after he was down?

I'll tell you what a court would say but let's hear your thoughts.

**Donger** · 08-17-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazycoffey

Just to entertain some of the comments in this thread, what's your thoughts on 6 civilians with clean records, and concealed carry permits, are at this strip mall when a nutjob pulls a knife and runs toward an innocent bystander. Said CCW holders all pull and shoot the nutjob in a span of 6 seconds and 46 rounds. No stray bullets hitting other innocents, but each person shoots 6 or 7 rounds.

Personally, I'm on board with city commendations for the civilians, but what do you think from your experience and back ground?

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Murray

Nice shootin', Tex!

crazycoffey · 08-17-2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

Because they were ****ing stupid, that's why. They ignored their training. I will lay money on it and experts have already come out to say such. I bet you could search every state's law on excessive force and not find one bit that would justify 6 cops continuing to shoot a suspect that was already down and not posing a threat.

inappropriate, yes. Murder, no. You were arguing for murder. And FYI, inappropriate still may mean action against the officers, but it also may not. I'll wager if any action is brought on the officers it's not going to be a murder charge.

**petegz28** · 08-17-2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So just so I'm clear - 6 trained marksmen that were so calm and collected that they managed to hit someone approximately 20 feet away at about a 20% clip made a conscious, rationale decision to disregard their training and continue shooting when the guy hit the ground? And that it was a lack of intelligence that led to this decision?

Not fear. Not adrenaline. They were just stupid and happened to have a collective bad aim day.

That makes far more sense than the possibility that thousands of years of human evolution created a fight or flight mechanism that these folks couldn't shake off in the span of 4 seconds.

I have seen the light...

You don't seem to get it or understand the law. What sucks for the cops is this is on video. The man was clearly down and they continued to shoot excessively. Adrenline is not a legal justification to continue shooting someone who is no longer posing a threat.

**Donger** · 08-17-2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

That's the entire point of their training, Donger. It doesn't matter how many shots hit him. What matters is they kept firing after he was down. That's where they ****ed up. Adrenaline is not going to be a valid excuse. It wouldn't be for you and it won't be for them.

I'm not sure that is part of their training. Evidence of that? Such as, "You may shoot naughty person when he threatens, but make sure you stop shooting the second he hits the ground, umkay?"

stevieray · 08-17-2012, 06:12 PM

the guy brought a knife to the gun fight. two cops max should have had guns drawn for shoulder or lower leg shots to immobilze the perp...six people fring multiple times resembles mob mentality...I think that a part of that comes from current culture..we're just more harsh and more prone to overeeact.

**petegz28** · 08-17-2012, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazycoffey

inappropriate, yes. Murder, no. You were arguing for murder. And FYI, inappropriate still may mean action against the officers, but it also may not. I'll wager if any action is brought on the officers it's not going to be a murder charge.

Perhaps murder was a bad word to use. But when you continue to shoot someone who is no longer posing a threat you have crossed a legal line.

DJ's left nut · 08-17-2012, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazycoffey

Just to entertain some of the comments in this thread, what's your thoughts on 6 civilians with clean records, and concealed carry permits, are at this strip mall when a nutjob pulls a knife and runs toward an innocent bystander. Said CCW holders all pull and shoot the nutjob in a span of 6 seconds and 46 rounds. No stray bullets hitting other innocents, but each person shoots 6 or 7 rounds.

Personally, I'm on board with city commendations for the civilians, but what do you think from your experience and back ground?

Oh, I wouldn't go giving out commendations. I completely endorse conceal and carry laws, but I don't want to actively encourage people to be drawing their guns in public. You start giving out medals, that's going to increase the odds of something going very wrong the next time.

I most assuredly wouldn't be prosecuting or anything, though. They did what had to be done in an immediate emergency situation and did so within a timeline that is ultimately reasonable.

**Donger** · 08-17-2012, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

Perhaps murder was a bad word to use.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

But when you continue to shoot someone who is no longer posing a threat you have crossed a legal line.

What legal line?

**petegz28** · 08-17-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

I'm not sure that is part of their training. Evidence of that? Such as, "You may shoot naughty person when he threatens, but make sure you stop shooting the second he hits the ground, umkay?"

That's exactly the law, Donger. If a person sticks a gun in your face and robs you the second he turns his back to you he is protected legaly from you shooting him because he no longer poses a threat. Now with Cops it is slightly different in that situation but for both civilian and police to continue firing upon a person who is down and posing no threat to you or others is illegal.

**petegz28** · 08-17-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

Thank you.

What legal line?

JFC, EXCESSIVE FORCE! Google is your friend. It's in all the law books.

**Donger** · 08-17-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

That's exactly the law, Donger. If a person sticks a gun in your face and robs you the second he turns his back to you he is protected legaly from you shooting him because he no longer poses a threat. Now with Cops it is slightly different in that situation but for both civilian and police to continue firing upon a person who is down and posing no threat to you or others is illegal.

Again, what law?

**Donger** · 08-17-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

JFC, EXCESSIVE FORCE! Google is your friend. It's in all the law books.

Just making sure, Pete. Now, how did these officers legally violate excessive force? Not your opinion, legally.

crazycoffey · 08-17-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Oh, I wouldn't go giving out commendations. I completely endorse conceal and carry laws, but I don't want to actively encourage people to be drawing their guns in public. You start giving out medals, that's going to increase the odds of something going very wrong the next time.

I most assuredly wouldn't be prosecuting or anything, though. They did what had to be done in an immediate emergency situation and did so within a timeline that is ultimately reasonable.

I was just curious. I saw a few posted opinions saying the opposite from ours.

08-17-2012, 01:06 PM
Mr. Laz Don't Tease Me Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: KS Casino cash: $11047037	Video of Police shooting man 30+ times Video captures Michigan man's shooting by police http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/16/us/mic...ing/index.html From Jason Carroll and Sheila Steffen, CNN updated 10:12 AM EDT, Fri August 17, 2012 Man killed by cops, shot multiple times STORY HIGHLIGHTS Milton Hall was killed in a confrontation with police in Saginaw, Michigan "It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," his mother says Prosecutors and state police are investigating Hall's killing His family says he was mentally ill and questions why the probe is taking so long Saginaw, Michigan (CNN) -- Three days before Independence Day, Milton Hall died in a fusillade of police gunfire outside a strip mall. He had been arguing with officers in a parking lot next to a shuttered Chinese restaurant when he was shot, in full view of passing motorists and while he was holding some sort of knife. Saginaw County Prosecutor Michael Thomas said later that the squad of police confronting him opened fire "because apparently, at this point in time, he was threatening to assault police." Thomas' office and the Michigan State Police are investigating Hall's death. Saginaw Police Chief Gerald Cliff said Hall was "known to be an assaultive person" with "a long history" of contacts with law enforcement, "not only with police from our department but with the county." Hall's cousin, Mike Washington, acknowledged Hall had been jailed for minor offenses like vagrancy in the past, but, "He was not violent." And Hall's mother is growing impatient with the probe and questions why police opened fire so furiously on her son, whom she said was mentally ill. The chart blog: Mental health "It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," Jewel Hall told CNN from her hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico. "There was another way. They did not have to kill him. He had not done anything. He was not violent. He was not a murderer. He was not a criminal." Jewel Hall said her son had once trained as a civil right activist, been an avid reader and played football. He had lived in Saginaw for 35 years and received Social Security disability payments for a mental illness, but, "He knew his rights." "Everybody knew him. The police knew him well," she said. "So that's another question: they knew him, so why? Why did they kill him?" WJRT: Community questions police shooting The July 1 shooting happened in a parking lot on West Genessee Avenue, a busy commercial strip on the north side of Saginaw. In a video purchased by CNN, shot by a motorist from across the street, the 49-year-old Hall is seen arguing with a half-dozen officers. For more than three minutes, he walks back and forth, and at one time appears to crouch in a "karate stance," according to the man who captured the scene. Police said Hall had just had a run-in with a convenience store clerk. On the video, he tells police, "My name is Milton Hall, I just called 911. My name is Milton, and I'm p---ed off." When an officer tells him to put the knife down, he responds, "I ain't putting s--t down." He appears unimpressed by a police dog, telling officers, "Let him go. Let the motherf---ing dog go." Finally, he turns to the left of the frame, where another officer had moved out of view a short time earlier. It's then that the police open fire with a reported 46 shots in a five-second hail of bullets. "I'm stunned that six human beings would stand in front of one human being and fire 46 shots," Jewel Hall said. "I just don't understand that. It's a lot of pain in that because it only takes one shot, so the question is why?" She questioned why none of the cameras in the police cars at the scene recorded the shooting -- "none of them work." "So that's the question I have and the community has is, what's taking so long?" she said. "Why is not being transparent?" Lou Palumbo, a former Long Island police officer, told CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" that the video is "a perceptive nightmare" for a police department and could reflect a lack of training by the officers. "This wasn't a scenario where he was discharging a weapon in their direction," he said. But Palumbo added that the shooting may yet be determined to be justifiable. "One of the things the public has to understand, an individual wielding a knife at you at about 20 feet can be on top of you in a split second," he said. "The public doesn't know this because they don't do this for a living." Neither state police nor the prosecutor's office would comment on the investigation. In a written statement to CNN, the state police said, "Our focus is on conducting a complete and thorough investigation, rather than a hasty one." But Saginaw City Councilman Norman Braddock, who also has criticized the pace of the investigation, said the probe should be a "top priority." When CNN showed Braddock the video, which he hadn't seen before, he said, "This is disturbing." "I can see what people are traumatized at, looking at something like that," Braddock said. "We need answers." Jewel Hall said her family is conducting its own investigation into the shooting, "and at the end of that investigation we will decide what next steps to take with our legal advisors."
Posts: 95,626

08-17-2012, 06:10 PM	#226
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $-750901	So just so I'm clear - 6 trained marksmen that were so calm and collected that they managed to hit someone approximately 20 feet away at about a 20% clip made a conscious, rationale decision to disregard their training and continue shooting when the guy hit the ground? And that it was a lack of intelligence that led to this decision? Not fear. Not adrenaline. They were just stupid and happened to have a collective bad aim day. That makes far more sense than the possibility that thousands of years of human evolution created a fight or flight mechanism that these folks couldn't shake off in the span of 4 seconds. I have seen the light... __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 66,803

08-17-2012, 06:12 PM	#232
stevieray Most things I worry about… Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Under Pressure Casino cash: $-1224727	the guy brought a knife to the gun fight. two cops max should have had guns drawn for shoulder or lower leg shots to immobilze the perp...six people fring multiple times resembles mob mentality...I think that a part of that comes from current culture..we're just more harsh and more prone to overeeact.
Posts: 74,063