***Official 2015 STL Cardinals Thread***

[BigRedChief]

2011 World Series Championship
2012 NLCS. One win from another WS appearance.
2013 World Series. Two wins from another World Series Championship
2014 NLCS. Three wins from another WS appearance

• Made the postseason 10 times in the last 14 seasons.
• Only 1 losing season since 2000.
• Reached the World Series 4 times since 2004 and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.
• Made the NLCS 9 times including the last 4 years 2011-2014
• Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.
• 65 post season wins since 2004. 22+ wins more than any other team.

[O.city]

Problem isn't necessarily talent offensively, imo, it's approach and moreso results.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by O.city

Problem isn't necessarily talent offensively, imo, it's approach and moreso results.

I don't know.

3B, SS, 2B, and C are the spots where we are above average offensively.

All of our outfield spots and 1st are deficient offensively. 1st generally gives you a production about 15% better than league average (for an average 1B), and we are 20% below league average. That is a massive deficit.

Heyward is basically average offensively for a RF
Bourjos is one of the worst offensive CF in baseball, and even then, he's decidedly better than Jay
Holliday is an elite offensive LF, but he's still on the shelf. Grichuk has performed like a middle of the pack OF, but that's not sustainable. He has more XBH than walks and singles, and he strikes out a ton.

Part of it is Mabry, but a lot of it is that Lance Berkman, Pujols, and Allen Craig aren't walking through that door.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I don't know.

3B, SS, 2B, and C are the spots where we are above average offensively.

All of our outfield spots and 1st are deficient offensively. 1st generally gives you a production about 15% better than league average (for an average 1B), and we are 20% below league average. That is a massive deficit.

Heyward is basically average offensively for a RF
Bourjos is one of the worst offensive CF in baseball, and even then, he's decidedly better than Jay
Holliday is an elite offensive LF, but he's still on the shelf. Grichuk has performed like a middle of the pack OF, but that's not sustainable. He has more XBH than walks and singles, and he strikes out a ton.

Part of it is Mabry, but a lot of it is that Lance Berkman, Pujols, and Allen Craig aren't walking through that door.

If he hadn't had the April he did, heyward would be above that though, and as we've seen, if he Co tines the track he is on thru the past 2 months, he should be.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by O.city

If he hadn't had the April he did, heyward would be above that though, and as we've seen, if he Co tines the track he is on thru the past 2 months, he should be.

Yeah, but you can't just throw out the bad and cherry pick the stats. If Pujols would have had the April he had in 2006 for the next five months he would have hit 84 homers.

Right now, Heyward's entire season is in line with his career averages, so the Jason Heyward over all of 2015 is pretty much Jason Heyward, not the one of Mid-May to June on.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Yeah, but you can't just throw out the bad and cherry pick the stats. If Pujols would have had the April he had in 2006 for the next five months he would have hit 84 homers.

Right now, Heyward's entire season is in line with his career averages, so the Jason Heyward over all of 2015 is pretty much Jason Heyward, not the one of Mid-May to June on.

You've got 1 month vs 2 months though, in a new environment with different coaching etc.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. From may 1 on, he's been a pretty good offensive player.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I couldn't give a single **** about 'every team's fans'. I don't speak for them and I damn sure won't be saddled with their idiocy. I don't universally hate my teams managers. I'm a fan of Reid, was a fan of Quenville, can't stand Byron Scott but actually like D'Antoni when everyone else hated him. I'm a LaRussa fan.

Stop with this 'all fans hate their managers' bullshit. It's Hootie garbage that doesn't actually mean anything. I personally do not hate all my team's head coaches/managers. This particular manager, on the other hand, is an addle-bthrained ****ing half-wit.

I don't post or think like Hootie. Come on man, no one confuses my and Hooties posting style or beliefs. On this issue we are in general agreement, fans in general don't like their managers and severely disagree with something they are doing. You may blow me away with stat knowledge (which I appreciate from you and Hamas, I've learned a lot)and forgot more about baseball than I know..........I'm still right on this part of baseball.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Give me some evidence that his guys 'play harder' than any other group of starters - they damn sure don't do it at the dish, on the field or on the bases.

He just has good pitchers. He's not some master motivator.

I agree the evidence is not overwhelming. The baserunning is a WTF is going on out there issue. Wong not running last night was bad, But I don't see Wong as a problem or lacks hustle. It was a brain fart.

• All the come from behind wins.
• The not laying down when we are beat by a large margin.
• Scoring runs in the late innings when beaten
• We have not played down to the level of lesser teams.
• We have not looked flabbergasted against a pitcher for the first time

It's 162 games. I don't have an issue with Yadi not running out a DP, easy ground ball, He catches more innings than anyone else, hes caught 11Kinnings for us. He obviously still plays the game with pride and passion. The HOF is filled with great players that have taken AB's off. Didn't go hard after a ball.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Says a fan of a team that bludgeoned its way to a WS in 2011 and put together two more pennants on the backs of its offense. The 2013 Red Sox did nothing but hit their way to the championship over the NL's elite offense in STL; both of those teams hit their way to the World Series. The Giants had Bumgarner and crap crap and crap as starters. Prior Giants teams all had above average offenses backing guys like Ryan Vogelsong or Barry Zito.

Teams aren't winning championships 2-1 anymore.

In 2006 Anthony Reyes, Anthony ****ing Reyes pitching out of his mind to win game 1. Carp pitched 8 innings of 3 hit 0 earned run baseball. Jeff Weaver gave us 8 inninngs of 1 earned run pitching to clinch.



2011..... Carp was amazing in 3 games. 1st game 0 earned runs 8 innings. 2nd game 7 innings 2 earned runs. Game 3 6 innings 2 earned runs. Garcia pitched 7 innings with 0 earned runs. Holland 2 hit us. Games 3&6 were offensive blowouts.


I could go on and on. Pitching is the most consistent path to winning playoff and World Series games.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I don't post or think like Hootie. Come on man, no one confuses my and Hooties posting style or beliefs. On this issue we are in general agreement, fans in general don't like their managers and severely disagree with something they are doing. You may blow me away with stat knowledge (which I appreciate from you and Hamas, I've learned a lot)and forgot more about baseball than I know..........I'm still right on this part of baseball.

The only 'hootie' aspect of it is expecting me to answer to it; it's a complete non-sequitur. Whether fans like their manager or not isn't germane to my criticisms. To use the ol' legal parlance - there's a rebutabble presumption that fans hate their manager because he's their manager and little else. I think I can rebut that pretty well by pointing out I don't hate all my managers. So we can just set that bit of trivia aside because it's simply not relevant to my disdain for the tactically brain-dead half-wit in our dugout.

I agree the evidence is not overwhelming. The baserunning is a WTF is going on out there issue. Wong not running last night was bad, But I don't see Wong as a problem or lacks hustle. It was a brain fart.

• All the come from behind wins.
• The not laying down when we are beat by a large margin.
• Scoring runs in the late innings when beaten
• We have not played down to the level of lesser teams.
• We have not looked flabbergasted against a pitcher for the first time

It's 162 games. I don't have an issue with Yadi not running out a DP, easy ground ball, He catches more innings than anyone else, hes caught 11Kinnings for us. He obviously still plays the game with pride and passion. The HOF is filled with great players that have taken AB's off. Didn't go hard after a ball.

I simply take umbrage to the argument that this has anything to do with Matheny. I'm not trying to argue that he's a below average motivator, I simply see no cause to say he's an above average one. They come back because the pitchers largely stop the bleeding. It's a hell of a lot easier to keep charging when you know the lead probably isn't going to expand. Again, that gets back to the performance of the pitchers.

As to stuff like 'scoring runs when we're beaten'...sorry, but all teams do that. Hell, teams with bad motivators do that because at that point guys just go out there to get theirs. And again, we HAVE played down to lesser teams, but the starting staff just doesn't give up any runs so we hang around long enough to win.

In 2006 Anthony Reyes, Anthony ****ing Reyes pitching out of his mind to win game 1. Carp pitched 8 innings of 3 hit 0 earned run baseball. Jeff Weaver gave us 8 inninngs of 1 earned run pitching to clinch.

2011..... Carp was amazing in 3 games. 1st game 0 earned runs 8 innings. 2nd game 7 innings 2 earned runs. Game 3 6 innings 2 earned runs. Garcia pitched 7 innings with 0 earned runs. Holland 2 hit us. Games 3&6 were offensive blowouts.

I could go on and on. Pitching is the most consistent path to winning playoff and World Series games.

We scored seven to back young Reyes - you don't think that had something to do with settling the rook down? When the Tigers jumped out 1-0 on him in the first, this years team would've taken 6 innings to scratch a run across. By then, a mentally frail Anthony Reyes would have almost certainly come unglued.

The 2011 squad had 1 decent pitcher. Didn't they win the NLCS without a single starter making it more than 6? To try to argue that they didn't simply hit themselves to success is disengenuous. Hell, they gave up 7 in a game they won because that's exactly what that team was capable of. They had to score 10 to win game 6. C'mon - this year's Cardinals team loses both of those games; they simply don't have the firepower to get into a shootout.

If you dropped an alien onto the planet and had him watch the last 10 seasons worth of baseball, he'd conclude that offenses are winning championships. If guys hadn't been saying "pitching wins titles" for the last 100 years, nobody would look at the 2011 postseason and argue pitching won that thing with a straight face.

[O.city]

IF you inject a healthy hitting Holliday in the 3 hole, move peralta into the 5 spot, heyward at 4, pham leading off, Wong 6th, yadi 7th there really isn't a reason the offense shouldn't be better. At that point, it's up to the players to perform to levels in which they should or are capable.

The absolute shit hole thag is first base is murdering this offense right now

[O.city]

I also have no clue if there's a stat for it, but we foul off more meat pitches than most teams, to my untrained eye

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

IF you inject a healthy hitting Holliday in the 3 hole, move peralta into the 5 spot, heyward at 4, pham leading off, Wong 6th, yadi 7th there really isn't a reason the offense shouldn't be better. At that point, it's up to the players to perform to levels in which they should or are capable.

The absolute shit hole thag is first base is murdering this offense right now

I've spent 2 years laughing at everyone who's said 'just move Holliday to first' in response to dealing with any number of corner OF surpluses we've appeared to have.

At this point I don't know that we have a choice. Seriously, is there any chance at all that his defense could be bad enough to offset his offensive contributions? Reynolds has just fallen to absolute shit.

Take a guy with holes in his swing then remove his power and plate discipline...it's not a pretty sight. He's just completely lost out there. I don't feel any overwhelming need to keep Grichuk in the lineup right now as he's become a liability in his own right, but he's better than Reynolds.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I've spent 2 years laughing at everyone who's said 'just move Holliday to first' in response to dealing with any number of corner OF surpluses we've appeared to have.

At this point I don't know that we have a choice. Seriously, is there any chance at all that his defense could be bad enough to offset his offensive contributions? Reynolds has just fallen to absolute shit.

Take a guy with holes in his swing then remove his power and plate discipline...it's not a pretty sight. He's just completely lost out there. I don't feel any overwhelming need to keep Grichuk in the lineup right now as he's become a liability in his own right, but he's better than Reynolds.

Lind would be nice though, right. Hell Laroche would be great.

I'd even take Ryan Howards awful ass

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I've spent 2 years laughing at everyone who's said 'just move Holliday to first' in response to dealing with any number of corner OF surpluses we've appeared to have.

At this point I don't know that we have a choice. Seriously, is there any chance at all that his defense could be bad enough to offset his offensive contributions? Reynolds has just fallen to absolute shit.

Take a guy with holes in his swing then remove his power and plate discipline...it's not a pretty sight. He's just completely lost out there. I don't feel any overwhelming need to keep Grichuk in the lineup right now as he's become a liability in his own right, but he's better than Reynolds.

I can't imagine Holliday's defense at 1B could be worse than his defense in LF. And it's not like Matt Adams - who legitimately throws like a girl, has no range, and isn't particularly agile around the bag or adept at scooping the ball in any looks I've had at him - was Keith Hernandez or anything over there.

[O.city]

So is there anyway Alonso would be available? I'd probably be really interested there.

Grichuk and Kaminsky get that deal done?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

So is there anyway Alonso would be available? I'd probably be really interested there.

Grichuk and Kaminsky get that deal done?

Mother of God, why would you even approach giving up that much for Alonso?

You keep mentioning him like he's ever actually done something in this game. WTF is the difference between Alonso and Matt Adams? Alonso's nothing but a high draft pick and some sparkly minor league numbers. He's been a career disappointment in the majors.

Giving up one of those guys is too much, let alone both. Alonso's just slow singles hitter with marginal defense. His upside is James Loney.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Originally Posted by O.city

So is there anyway Alonso would be available? I'd probably be really interested there.

Grichuk and Kaminsky get that deal done?

I hope that's a joke. Kaminsky straight up is too much.