Chiefs Pioli's Draft Record (Good read.) - Page 2

T-post Tom · 01-14-2009, 12:46 AM

A Look At Pioli’s Record/Part 1
January 13, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

There are four different avenues that produce players for NFL teams.

There is unrestricted free agency, street free agents or players that have failed with another team and college free agents.

But the biggest pipeline is the NFL Draft.

There is no question that the Super Bowl success of the New England Patriots was built on draft picks. Just about all their key performers came through selections made by Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli (left).

Not a lot is known about just how the Patriots operated in the draft room, but we know Belichick had the final say so. We also know he had a great deal of faith in Pioli and his scouts’ ability to match college players with what Belichick was looking for on his roster. There was most definitely a plan, and most definitely a template for physical characteristics and skills at certain positions.

A team that takes advantage of the draft does two things: it does not make mistakes at the top of the draft and it finds gems in the later rounds, players who make contributions despite being selected late in the process. For the most part, the Patriots did both and that allowed them to win three Super Bowls.

Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2000-2004.
http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-footb...2000-2004.html

Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2005-2008.
http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-footb...2005-2008.html

And here are some items of interest that come out of analyzing the 77 players the Patriots have selected in the 2000 through 2008 NFL Drafts:

– New England’s average pick in the first round over the last nine years was No. 20. There were no picks in the top five and only two in the top 10 and three in the top half of the draft. Because of their success, they normally held draft positions late in rounds. They had just 14 picks in the top 50 and 26 in the top 100.

– The Patriots did not use picks on small college players. Of those 77 selected, 74 were from major college teams/Division 1. Two were from what used to be called Division 1-AA and they drafted just one small college player: TE Andy Stokes, who was the final player taken in the 2005 Draft out of William Penn University, a NAIA school.

– Not only did the Patriots zero in on major college talent, they looked especially hard at the major conferences. Of those 77 players, 55 were taken from schools in the Atlantic Coast, Big 12, Big 10, Pac-10 and Southeastern Conferences, along with Notre Dame. The Big 12 and SEC led the way with 12 players each.

– Belichick-Pioli hit on their No. 1 picks, as eight of the nine are still with the team. The only one missing is 2002 first-rounder Daniel Graham, who left as a free agent and signed with Denver after five seasons in New England. The remaining eight are all starters for the Patriots: RDE Richard Seymour, LDE Ty Warren, NT Vince Wilfork, TE Ben Watson, LG Logan Mankins, RB Laurence Maroney, S Brandon Meriweather and LB Jerod Mayo.

– As good as they were in the first round, New England was bad in the second round. They had eight choices in that round in nine years, and only two remain with the team: starting left tackle Matt Light and rookie cornerback Terrence Wheatley, who finished the season on the injured-reserve list after playing in seven games

– The Patriots had what could be called the greatest value pick of the decade when they grabbed quarterback Tom Brady with choice No. 199 in the sixth round of the 2000 Draft. Brady went on to become quite possibly the greatest clutch quarterback in the history of the game, leading the team to three Super Bowls.

– They may have done it again with seventh-round choice quarterback Matt Cassel, who came in and replaced the injured Brady in the ‘08 season opener against the Chiefs and went on to a remarkable season for a quarterback who had not been a starter since high school.

– In nine drafts, the highest quarterback selection for the Patriots came in the ‘08 Draft when they took quarterback Kevin O’Connell in the third round with the 94th pick. Only five of the other 31 teams in the league have not drafted a quarterback higher than the 94th spot: Indianapolis, New Orleans, Carolina, Tampa Bay and St. Louis. Some have taken more than one quarterback higher than No. 94.

– As good as the Patriots have been at finding quarterbacks, that’s how bad they’ve been in finding and keeping wide receivers. They’ve drafted six, including a trio of second-round picks. One of those was just two years ago, when they grabbed Florida’s Chad Jackson, but they released him at the end of the ‘08 pre-season. Of the six wide receivers on the roster at the end of the ‘08 season, only one came through the draft: rookie Matthew Slater. Their two starters, Randy Moss and Wes Welker, cost them second, fourth and seventh round picks.

– New England invested a lot of early draft choices along the defensive line, with three first-round picks and one second-rounder among 11 total picks. They only used three early choices along the offensive line, with one first and a pair of second-round choices.

– They selected eight tight ends in nine drafts, including a pair of first-round choices. That’s more first round tight ends than first round quarterbacks/running backs/wide receivers combined.

– Their favorite positions in the draft were linebacker and cornerback, where they’ve selected 10 players each.

kstater · 01-14-2009, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H5N1

I just wonder if pioli will have the balls to take a QB in the top three. doesn't seem the pats' M.O, unfortunately.

They haven't exactly had a reason to draft a QB high, nor the opportunity.

TipRoast · 01-14-2009, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

You can't really judge them on the QB picks, Bledsoe was there as the #1 overall pick and had a a huge franchise player contract when Pioli came in, they use a late round pick on Brady and he becomes a star, they have no reason to use another high pick on a QB.

Belichick and Pioli were never that impressed by Bledsoe.

And Brady was targeted by QB coach Dick Rehbein (now deceased). He saw the intangibles while everyone else focused on the measurables (slow, skinny, average arm).

Brady had a much better pre-season than Bledsoe in 2001; it was only Bledsoe's contract that kept him as the starter (and I'm a Bledsoe fan - he and Parcells are the reasons the Patriots aren't a joke franchise anymore). There's a theory that even without Bledsoe's injury, Brady would have been the starter for game 3 that season,

Mecca · 01-14-2009, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TipRoast

Belichick and Pioli were never that impressed by Bledsoe.

And Brady was targeted by QB coach Dick Rehbein (now deceased). He saw the intangibles while everyone else focused on the measurables (slow, skinny, average arm).

Brady had a much better pre-season than Bledsoe in 2001; it was only Bledsoe's contract that kept him as the starter (and I'm a Bledsoe fan - he and Parcells are the reasons the Patriots aren't a joke franchise anymore). There's a theory that even without Bledsoe's injury, Brady would have been the starter for game 3 that season,

That all may be true but they weren't going to drop a 1st round pick on a QB with the contract Bledsoe had at the time.

People can point out how they haven't used high picks on QB's, but they've really never been in the position to need to do that.

TipRoast · 01-14-2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

That all may be true but they weren't going to drop a 1st round pick on a QB with the contract Bledsoe had at the time.

People can point out how they haven't used high picks on QB's, but they've really never been in the position to need to do that.

You're correct, of course, but given their experience of winning a SB with a 6th round pick, and winning 11 games with a QB that hadn't started since high school and was a 7th round pick, I don't think they would ever use a high draft pick on a QB.

They seem to use really high draft picks only on defensive linemen. I think you'll see the same this year. Sure, you have Dorsey, but the Pats had Seymour and picked Ty Warren. And they had Seymour and Warren and took Wilfork.

Look at the success the Vikings had with the Williams Wall. It takes more than one elite player to build a defensive front.

Amnorix · 01-14-2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom

A Look At Pioli’s Record/Part 1
January 13, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

As good as they were in the first round, New England was bad in the second round. They had eight choices in that round in nine years, and only two remain with the team: starting left tackle Matt Light and rookie cornerback Terrence Wheatley, who finished the season on the injured-reserve list after playing in seven games

This is a bit overblown. While the second round picks have not been consistently great or anything, and include such notable busts as Bethel Johnson, it also included Deion freaking Branch, whom Gretz completely ignores, and Eugene Wilson, who was a very good starting safety for us for several years before his career rather inexplicably went into the toilet.

Quote:

– As good as the Patriots have been at finding quarterbacks, that’s how bad they’ve been in finding and keeping wide receivers. They’ve drafted six, including a trio of second-round picks. One of those was just two years ago, when they grabbed Florida’s Chad Jackson, but they released him at the end of the ‘08 pre-season. Of the six wide receivers on the roster at the end of the ‘08 season, only one came through the draft: rookie Matthew Slater. Their two starters, Randy Moss and Wes Welker, cost them second, fourth and seventh round picks.

Again, SLIGHT exaggeration in my view. Deion Branch was fantastic but left town for more $$$. David Givens was a steal in the 7th round, but left via FA for more $$$ with the Titans and then had very serious injuries that have derailed his career entirely.

Quote:

– Their favorite positions in the draft were linebacker and cornerback, where they’ve selected 10 players each.

Slightly misleading only in that HIGH picks are typically not used on LBs or CBs, so you don't notice them much. Mayo this past draft was our first LB pick in the first, heck, 3 rounds I think, since BB/SP have been running the draft. We've had no 1st round CB picks that I can think of.

It's clear the Patriots focus on the players that are involved in EVERY Play high in the draft. Offensive and defensive lines, tight ends (who are either blocking or catching on every play), etc. WRs and CBs get alot less love in the 1st round, to be sure, usually getting some 2nd or later round atttention instead.

Amnorix · 01-14-2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TipRoast

They seem to use really high draft picks only on defensive linemen. I think you'll see the same this year. Sure, you have Dorsey, but the Pats had Seymour and picked Ty Warren. And they had Seymour and Warren and took Wilfork.

I don't disagree, but Wilfork fell in the draft right into our laps at 21, and we needed a NG, so it was a perfect fit. It's not like they had to go far out of their way or anything.

Amnorix · 01-14-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H5N1

I just wonder if pioli will have the balls to take a QB in the top three. doesn't seem the pats' M.O, unfortunately.

If he thinks he's the best fit for your team over any other player, of course he will.

The Patriots didn't take a QB high because they had absolutely no need of taking a QB high...

Amnorix · 01-14-2009, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom

My bet is that he trades down into the 2nd half of the first.

I think he'll look to slide back, but probably not that far. Also, it would likely take two deals to slide back quite that much.

Ebolapox · 01-14-2009, 07:18 AM

of course, you guys are absolutely correct. there's just a part of me (and a lot of chiefs fans) who haven't been spoiled by franchise QB after franchise QB (back to back to back--bledsoe, brady, and MAYBE cassell). maybe it's the system, maybe it's the talent evaluators. obviously, I'm hoping for the latter.

KCJohnny · 01-14-2009, 07:30 AM

The Pats have a rep (deserved) for having the NFL's deepest bench. That said, the draft record of Pioli/Belichick underwhelms me.

Amnorix · 01-14-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCJohnny

The Pats have a rep (deserved) for having the NFL's deepest bench. That said, the draft record of Pioli/Belichick underwhelms me.

Whose draft record do you like better. Outside of **maybe** Polian at Indy and the Ravens, I'm not sure there's anyone who could possibly be better.

KCJohnny · 01-14-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Whose draft record do you like better. Outside of **maybe** Polian at Indy and the Ravens, I'm not sure there's anyone who could possibly be better.

Did you read this?

Quote:

Not a lot is known about just how the Patriots operated in the draft room, but we know Belichick had the final say so.

I'm not a big college/draft fan, so I'm the wrong person to ask. I'm glad Pioli's hired, I'm just not sure (as Gretz stated) how much of the Patsies' success was B-cick and how much was Pioli. FWIW, I think Pioli is inheriting some real nice young talent in KC.

tomahawk kid · 01-14-2009, 07:36 AM

Anyone else get a "sour grapes" feel from Blob's article?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens once "Don" Pioli complete shuts down Gretz's access.

**The Bad Guy** · 01-14-2009, 07:41 AM

If you think Herm should be kept one more year, you shouldn't be allowed to watch football.

Mama Hip Rockets · 01-14-2009, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom

Only five of the other 31 teams in the league have not drafted a quarterback higher than the 94th spot: Indianapolis, New Orleans, Carolina, Tampa Bay and St. Louis. Some have taken more than one quarterback higher than No. 94.

peyton manning was not drafted higher than the 94th spot?

01-14-2009, 12:46 AM
T-post Tom Busy in a Kohl's restroom Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Milk/Honey/Gazland Casino cash: $1917293	Pioli's Draft Record (Good read.) A Look At Pioli’s Record/Part 1 January 13, 2009 - Bob Gretz \| There are four different avenues that produce players for NFL teams. There is unrestricted free agency, street free agents or players that have failed with another team and college free agents. But the biggest pipeline is the NFL Draft. There is no question that the Super Bowl success of the New England Patriots was built on draft picks. Just about all their key performers came through selections made by Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli (left). Not a lot is known about just how the Patriots operated in the draft room, but we know Belichick had the final say so. We also know he had a great deal of faith in Pioli and his scouts’ ability to match college players with what Belichick was looking for on his roster. There was most definitely a plan, and most definitely a template for physical characteristics and skills at certain positions. A team that takes advantage of the draft does two things: it does not make mistakes at the top of the draft and it finds gems in the later rounds, players who make contributions despite being selected late in the process. For the most part, the Patriots did both and that allowed them to win three Super Bowls. Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2000-2004. http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-footb...2000-2004.html Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2005-2008. http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-footb...2005-2008.html And here are some items of interest that come out of analyzing the 77 players the Patriots have selected in the 2000 through 2008 NFL Drafts: – New England’s average pick in the first round over the last nine years was No. 20. There were no picks in the top five and only two in the top 10 and three in the top half of the draft. Because of their success, they normally held draft positions late in rounds. They had just 14 picks in the top 50 and 26 in the top 100. – The Patriots did not use picks on small college players. Of those 77 selected, 74 were from major college teams/Division 1. Two were from what used to be called Division 1-AA and they drafted just one small college player: TE Andy Stokes, who was the final player taken in the 2005 Draft out of William Penn University, a NAIA school. – Not only did the Patriots zero in on major college talent, they looked especially hard at the major conferences. Of those 77 players, 55 were taken from schools in the Atlantic Coast, Big 12, Big 10, Pac-10 and Southeastern Conferences, along with Notre Dame. The Big 12 and SEC led the way with 12 players each. – Belichick-Pioli hit on their No. 1 picks, as eight of the nine are still with the team. The only one missing is 2002 first-rounder Daniel Graham, who left as a free agent and signed with Denver after five seasons in New England. The remaining eight are all starters for the Patriots: RDE Richard Seymour, LDE Ty Warren, NT Vince Wilfork, TE Ben Watson, LG Logan Mankins, RB Laurence Maroney, S Brandon Meriweather and LB Jerod Mayo. – As good as they were in the first round, New England was bad in the second round. They had eight choices in that round in nine years, and only two remain with the team: starting left tackle Matt Light and rookie cornerback Terrence Wheatley, who finished the season on the injured-reserve list after playing in seven games – The Patriots had what could be called the greatest value pick of the decade when they grabbed quarterback Tom Brady with choice No. 199 in the sixth round of the 2000 Draft. Brady went on to become quite possibly the greatest clutch quarterback in the history of the game, leading the team to three Super Bowls. – They may have done it again with seventh-round choice quarterback Matt Cassel, who came in and replaced the injured Brady in the ‘08 season opener against the Chiefs and went on to a remarkable season for a quarterback who had not been a starter since high school. – In nine drafts, the highest quarterback selection for the Patriots came in the ‘08 Draft when they took quarterback Kevin O’Connell in the third round with the 94th pick. Only five of the other 31 teams in the league have not drafted a quarterback higher than the 94th spot: Indianapolis, New Orleans, Carolina, Tampa Bay and St. Louis. Some have taken more than one quarterback higher than No. 94. – As good as the Patriots have been at finding quarterbacks, that’s how bad they’ve been in finding and keeping wide receivers. They’ve drafted six, including a trio of second-round picks. One of those was just two years ago, when they grabbed Florida’s Chad Jackson, but they released him at the end of the ‘08 pre-season. Of the six wide receivers on the roster at the end of the ‘08 season, only one came through the draft: rookie Matthew Slater. Their two starters, Randy Moss and Wes Welker, cost them second, fourth and seventh round picks. – New England invested a lot of early draft choices along the defensive line, with three first-round picks and one second-rounder among 11 total picks. They only used three early choices along the offensive line, with one first and a pair of second-round choices. – They selected eight tight ends in nine drafts, including a pair of first-round choices. That’s more first round tight ends than first round quarterbacks/running backs/wide receivers combined. – Their favorite positions in the draft were linebacker and cornerback, where they’ve selected 10 players each.
Posts: 22,280

01-14-2009, 07:18 AM	#24
Ebolapox remember, remember Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: como Casino cash: $-1570097	of course, you guys are absolutely correct. there's just a part of me (and a lot of chiefs fans) who haven't been spoiled by franchise QB after franchise QB (back to back to back--bledsoe, brady, and MAYBE cassell). maybe it's the system, maybe it's the talent evaluators. obviously, I'm hoping for the latter.
Posts: 26,518

01-14-2009, 07:30 AM	#25
KCJohnny Blind, deceived homer Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Maryland, USA Casino cash: $10004900	The Pats have a rep (deserved) for having the NFL's deepest bench. That said, the draft record of Pioli/Belichick underwhelms me. __________________
Posts: 6,347

01-14-2009, 07:36 AM	#28
tomahawk kid Drunk in the Neighborhood Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Beating the War Drums Casino cash: $10001837	Anyone else get a "sour grapes" feel from Blob's article? It's going to be interesting to see what happens once "Don" Pioli complete shuts down Gretz's access.
Posts: 5,974

01-14-2009, 07:41 AM	#29
The Bad Guy Scott Pioli Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The Copacobana Casino cash: $9283645	If you think Herm should be kept one more year, you shouldn't be allowed to watch football. __________________
Posts: 23,216