Career Advice

[Saul Good]

The last month or so, one of my company's competitors has been trying to recruit me away from my current employer. I'm reasonably happy where I am and will hit 5 years of service on March 1st (which means that I will be fully vested).

The new company kept calling, so I decided that I would meet with them and listen to their pitch. After meeting with HR and the office manager, it's pretty clear that they are going to make me an offer. I told the office manager that it was going to cost them more than they were planning on spending in order to get me to switch. He said that he would pressure them to give me what I wanted, but we didn't get to hard numbers yet.

I'm planning on asking for a 20-30% increase over what I currently make. I think they might agree to 20%. Whatever they offer, I am going to take it to my current employer and ask them to match it when my 5 year review comes up next month. If it's 20%+, I doubt they will match it, but they will probably meet me somewhere in between.

My question is this: How much money should I be willing to leave on the table in order to stay where I am? It's basically a lateral move, and there's always the risk/hassle factor associated with switching companies. Assuming that everything is a push in terms of pros and cons between the two compaines, how much is it worth to stay where I'm comfortable?

[alnorth]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Without knowing your company or boss's attitude towards these types of things, I would say keep this in mind.

You are basically holding your company hostage if you tell them about the other offer and ask them to match or meet you somewhere.

Nothing wrong with that but keep in mind, even if they match or meet you in the middle, there may be resentment going forward that could cause trouble later. Maybe not I don't know your company.

Not saying it should be that way or it's correct just saying I have seen it happen.

One approach would be just to put in notice. They will obviously ask you why and you can tell them better financial opportunity. If they want to make you a counter offer it's on them at that point.

I guess all I am saying and you may already know this, don't go in there saying or implying I am leaving unless you give me XXX. Let them approach you about what they need to do to keep you.

If they don't do that you are probably better off going where they value you more anyway.

Good luck.

Thats pretty much how I feel. Your company should know what you are worth and if there is recruiting and competition for labor in your profession, they should know that paying too little has consequences.

If I ever decided to leave someday (I'm happy where I'm at now), I'd pretty much follow what you describe here.

My only other piece of advice is not to make a promise that you cant keep. Don't tell company B that you'll come if they offer +25% and then go back to company A for a match.

Following a long interview process and offer a long time ago for my first job out of college, I didn't have a better option (and liked the company anyway) so I told them that yes, I was coming. The day after another attractive company that had been sitting on my resume forever finally called me for an interview and I shut them down because I already gave my word to the offer I had accepted.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by frazod

In this economy, do you want to give up a secure, reasonably long term job that you're happy with to become the newest employee for a competitor? That's a serious consideration in this economy. And if you get greased by the new place, good chance you'll have burned your bridges with the old one.

A few years ago, I'd say jump and not think twice. But this ain't a few years ago.

For years, employers have held all the cards. I happen to have been dealt a pretty strong hand all of a sudden. My value at to current employer has never been higher (At least that's the way I perceive it), and there is another company that needs someone with exactly my skill set. I certainly don't want to overplay my hand, but I don't want to muck it, either.

The way I see it, if I don't take some sort of chance now, I might not ever do it. To further the analogy, should I wait until I have a royal flush before pushing in my chips?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Saul Good

This post confuses me. You seem to be agreeing with a post and then saying the exact opposite.

I'm saying you should consider Frazod's advise. The economy is for chit. I don't know your field or supply and demand for employees in your field.

There is a bigger demand than supply of qualified employees in my field of endevour. I believed in myself and took a leap of faith. But it could have went south and set me years back financially.

It's the ying/yang. Both are legitamate points. Only you can decide whats the right move.

Clearer?

[alnorth]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I'm saying you should consider Frazod's advise. The economy is for chit. I don't know your field or supply and demand for employees in your field.

There is a bigger demand than supply of qualified employees in my field of endevour. I believed in myself and took a leap of faith. But it could have went south and set me years back financially.

It's the ying/yang. Both are legitamate points. Only you can decide whats the right move.

Clearer?

yep, you also gotta know your real worth and how solid the new company is.

Every field is different. I'm in an odd little profession where the labor pool is very low (as in merely thousands in the entire country) and the demand has never been higher. If I was in something more generic like sales or I was an MBA, then the risk of "leaping" to a higher ledge is much bigger.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by Bugeater

It would have to be at least 25% for them to even get my attention. It's tough to put a dollar value on not dreading to have to go to work in the morning.

Wow. 25% minimum? That's strong. I totally understand where you're coming from, though. No amount of money is worth dreading coming to work. That's why I added the "all things being equal" caveat. I know that there's no such thing, but it's hard to quantify the uncertainty.

I've also come to realize that job security is a myth, and I don't really believe in loyalty to an employer in most circumstances. If the employer has gone out of its way to help you out when you had a sick family member or something, I would say that you owe them something. If they just pay you for coming to work, you don't owe them any more loyalty than your grocery store owes you for buying a gallon of milk.

In my case, I feel like I agreed to work to the best of my ability, and I have. They agreed to pay me a certain amount, and they have. It's been a good deal for both sides, but I don't feel like I owe them anything, and I don't think they feel like they owe me anything.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I'm saying you should consider Frazod's advise. The economy is for chit. I don't know your field or supply and demand for employees in your field.

There is a bigger demand than supply of qualified employees in my field of endevour. I believed in myself and took a leap of faith. But it could have went south and set me years back financially.

It's the ying/yang. Both are legitamate points. Only you can decide whats the right move.

Clearer?

Your point is clearer, but my situation's not. It just raises more questions, dammit! I need answers, man.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Saul Good

Wow. 25% minimum? That's strong. I totally understand where you're coming from, though. No amount of money is worth dreading coming to work. That's why I added the "all things being equal" caveat. I know that there's no such thing, but it's hard to quantify the uncertainty.

I've also come to realize that job security is a myth, and I don't really believe in loyalty to an employer in most circumstances. If the employer has gone out of its way to help you out when you had a sick family member or something, I would say that you owe them something. If they just pay you for coming to work, you don't owe them any more loyalty than your grocery store owes you for buying a gallon of milk.

In my case, I feel like I agreed to work to the best of my ability, and I have. They agreed to pay me a certain amount, and they have. It's been a good deal for both sides, but I don't feel like I owe them anything, and I don't think they feel like they owe me anything.

I've never approached my employer for a raise or let them know of another job offer and expected a counter offer. All the jumps were for clearly better positions.

[rageeumr]

I think the crux is that you say "Assuming that everything is a push in terms of pros and cons between the two companies", but the fact is that they probably aren't, and those non-monetary factors can affect your happiness, whether you're cognizant of it or not.

The example I always give people about my job is freedom. I work out on the company clock nearly every day. A lot of days I eat lunch at my desk or work late and more than make up for it. But some days I don't. And no one is watching me and auditing my hours. I can go run errands during the day if I need to. If I get my stuff done, no one messes with me. I'd turn down a 25% raise in a heartbeat if they told me I had to be there 8-5 unless I got it cleared with a manager.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by alnorth

yep, you also gotta know your real worth and how solid the new company is.

Every field is different. I'm in an odd little profession where the labor pool is very low (as in merely thousands in the entire country) and the demand has never been higher. If I was in something more generic like sales or I was an MBA, then the risk of "leaping" to a higher ledge is much bigger.

This is very true. In this situation, I don't think there's much chance that the new company would be likely to screw me, though. I'm much more worried about me liking them than them liking me. That's why I'm willing to take a "hometown discount" in order to stay with my current employer. The question is 'how much'.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by rageeumr

I think the crux is that you say "Assuming that everything is a push in terms of pros and cons between the two companies", but the fact is that they probably aren't, and those non-monetary factors can affect your happiness, whether you're cognizant of it or not.

The example I always give people about my job is freedom. I work out on the company clock nearly every day. A lot of days I eat lunch at my desk or work late and more than make up for it. But some days I don't. And no one is watching me and auditing my hours. I can go run errands during the day if I need to. If I get my stuff done, no one messes with me. I'd turn down a 25% raise in a heartbeat if they told me I had to be there 8-5 unless I got it cleared with a manager.

You are describing my current situation perfectly. In fact, that's easily the biggest positive about where I'm at now. I would describe the rest of my current situation as average to slightly below average compare to my perception of the rest of my field. That's a huge positive, though. I plan on finding out if the new employer is similar in this regard before making a decision.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I've never approached my employer for a raise or let them know of another job offer and expected a counter offer. All the jumps were for clearly better positions.

Neither have I. Then again, my raises have been about 3% over the last 4 years, so maybe I need to re-think my strategy.

If the new employer offers me 20%, and my current employer offers me 10%, I'm thinking I'll probably stay. Anything less than that makes it really tough to decide. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if this isn't about stroking my own ego. If my current employer told me that they could only offer me 7% but really hopes that I will stay because they realize that I am valuable to them, that would probably mean more to me than them offering me 10% and telling me to take it or leave it.

[rageeumr]

Originally Posted by Saul Good

Neither have I. Then again, my raises have been about 3% over the last 4 years, so maybe I need to re-think my strategy.

If the new employer offers me 20%, and my current employer offers me 10%, I'm thinking I'll probably stay. Anything less than that makes it really tough to decide. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if this isn't about stroking my own ego. If my current employer told me that they could only offer me 7% but really hopes that I will stay because they realize that I am valuable to them, that would probably mean more to me than them offering me 10% and telling me to take it or leave it.

I'm not offering this as advice, simply as an anecdote. My wife and I went to undergrad together. She's a year older than me, graduated a year earlier and went to grad school. I graduated and took a job. When she got out of grad school she had an offer with a company in Pittsburgh that she really wanted to take. I went and interviewed with them, and they made me an offer for substantially more than I was making at the time. In the end, I convinced her to move to KC.

I took my offer letter from the other company in and gave it to my boss. I explained to him that I wasn't looking to negotiate and that I had already turned the offer down, but I wanted him to know what my market value was. My next raise was to the exact level of that offer.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by rageeumr

I'm not offering this as advice, simply as an anecdote. My wife and I went to undergrad together. She's a year older than me, graduated a year earlier and went to grad school. I graduated and took a job. When she got out of grad school she had an offer with a company in Pittsburgh that she really wanted to take. I went and interviewed with them, and they made me an offer for substantially more than I was making at the time. In the end, I convinced her to move to KC.

I took my offer letter from the other company in and gave it to my boss. I explained to him that I wasn't looking to negotiate and that I had already turned the offer down, but I wanted him to know what my market value was. My next raise was to the exact level of that offer.

Interesting. That's kind of similar to what my strategy with my current employer is going to be (except I'm not going to shut the door completely first). I'm planning on showing them the offer and telling them that I want to stay where I'm at, but I think that they should pay me market value.

Three things can happen, the way I see it.

1. They can give me a raise.
2. They can tell me that they don't think I'm worth that much.
3. They can tell me that I'm worth that much but they are going to choose to under-pay me.

Situation 1 is a total win. Situations 2 and 3 would tell me that I'm probably better off going somewhere else, anyway.

[alnorth]

Originally Posted by Saul Good

Interesting. That's kind of similar to what my strategy with my current employer is going to be (except I'm not going to shut the door completely first). I'm planning on showing them the offer and telling them that I want to stay where I'm at, but I think that they should pay me market value.

Three things can happen, the way I see it.

1. They can give me a raise.
2. They can tell me that they don't think I'm worth that much.
3. They can tell me that I'm worth that much but they are going to choose to under-pay me.

Situation 1 is a total win. Situations 2 and 3 would tell me that I'm probably better off going somewhere else, anyway.

There's nothing wrong with this course of action, as long as you are professional and honest with everyone (the current and offering companies). I'm sure it isn't the first time your boss has ever had this conversation either. The only thing is, once you start that conversation you have to be ready to leave. You cant take it back if your boss reacts poorly and you didn't really want to accept the offer at all.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by alnorth

There's nothing wrong with this course of action, as long as you are professional and honest with everyone (the current and offering companies). I'm sure it isn't the first time your boss has ever had this conversation either. The only thing is, once you start that conversation you have to be ready to leave. You cant take it back if your boss reacts poorly and you didn't really want to accept the offer at all.

My boss is actually pretty big on employees doing what is best for themselves as long as there's nothing shady going on. I'm not worried about getting a poor reaction if I don't completely overplay my hand.

As I've gotten older, I see myself getting more disgusted by the imbalance of power between employees and employers. In a normal economy, it's as hard for an employer to find a good employee to fill a position as it is for an individual to find a good job. A company really isn't doing an employee a favor by letting that employee work there any more than the employee is doing the company a favor by showing up to work.

If my employer doesn't think that I'm giving them their money's worth, they will find someone to replace me with someone who will. If I don't think the company is paying me what I'm worth, it's up to me to replace them with a company that will. (Of course, the current job market complicates things.)