KC residents - How are you voting on the smoking ban in April?

[Bowser]

Let's get a definitive look on how the Planet feels about this. Poll on the way.

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Okay, NOW I get it.

You'd prefer NO regulation of ANY kind. NONE.

As if EVERYONE in America were kind, caring, smart individuals who took personal responsibility for their actions.

As if EVERY corporation in America was filled with kind, caring, smart executives whose driving passions were to think of the consumer first and foremost and profits second.

Well Dude, unfortunately, we don't live in a country like that. Whatsoever.

But let me know if you find one. I'd be up for moving there.

Someone is reaching....

[Spott]

Too bad the restaurants up there haven't figured out how to make sweet tea.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

...I'd be up for moving there.

You already did.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

Someone is reaching....

I can't speak for him but I believe that what Mr. Havelock has been advocating is little to no government regulation. Let the public make their own choices with their dollars, regardless of the consequences and keep the government out of private business.

That sounds great to me. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of people in this nation aren't responsible and personal responsibility has gone the way of the Wholly Mammoth.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

...Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of people in this nation aren't responsible and personal responsibility has gone the way of the Wholly Mammoth.

Then let the personally irresponsible go the same way.

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I can't speak for him but I believe that what Mr. Havelock has been advocating is little to no government regulation. Let the public make their own choices with their dollars, regardless of the consequences and keep the government out of private business.

That sounds great to me. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of people in this nation aren't responsible and personal responsibility has gone the way of the Wholly Mammoth.

"Whatever would we do without the government to protect us?!" I'll tell you what would happen. Consumer groups would emerge and give us the same information for a cheaper price tag. People would make their choices with their money, the end.

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

Then let the personally irresponsible go the same way.

Darwinism at its most practical, imo.

[Simplex3]

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

Then let the personally irresponsible go the same way.

I'm Ok with this.

In order to be Ok with this, though, you have to be prepared to watch people starve to death. You have to be able to bear the images of people lying, sick and dying, with no medical care.

I'm ready. I know very few people that can/would deal with that, though.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Okay, NOW I get it.

Apparently you don't. Pity, I can't spell it out any more plainly for you. It must be the same problem I have understanding a mind-set that's "too busy" to take personal responsibility for the food you eat, places you go, etc. Two very different world-views that are simply incompatible.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You'd prefer NO regulation of ANY kind. NONE.

I didn't say that, or even allude to it. In a perfect world, maybe. This isn't. As such, I realistically move to acceptance of a MINIMUM of regulation. I'll take this as another of your "I can't specifically address the points you made, so I'll just dismiss it by vastly exaggerating what you said" posts. That's OK. You've proved several times in this thread that's "how you roll".

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

As if EVERYONE in America were kind, caring, smart individuals who took personal responsibility for their actions.

It's be nice, but there's a reason the word "Utopia" was chosen for the "perfect place".

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

As if EVERY corporation in America was filled with kind, caring, smart executives whose driving passions were to think of the consumer first and foremost and profits second.

Already addressed previously. See my previous comments about the necessity of an independent "review" as Private industry (or the FDA itself for that matter) may not be sufficently independent to perform that role. Within our current system, I'd rather see a double-check system with the FDA and an independent private group.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Well Dude, unfortunately, we don't live in a country like that. Whatsoever.

As you said, no shit, Sherlock. IMO, largely because of folks who encourage a mindset of abdicating personal responsibility because they don't have the time, or are too lazy.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

But let me know if you find one. I'd be up for moving there.

If I found one, why would I fu*k it up by inviting a busybody like you? You'd just come in and start pushing for the same crap. In a couple of generations, it'd be just like here with people whining about how they are too busy and it's too hard to take responsibility for themselves.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I can't speak for him but I believe that what Mr. Havelock has been advocating is little to no government regulation. Let the public make their own choices with their dollars, regardless of the consequences and keep the government out of private business.

Huh. Maybe you are beginning to understand. It's not an "absolute" by any means, but in my case a decent guiding ideal. In short, a minimum of regulation, but not necessarily "none".

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

That sounds great to me.

Really? Because it's what you've been arguing against for almost 10 pages. That's a damn odd way of showing how "great" you think something is, IMO.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of people in this nation aren't responsible and personal responsibility has gone the way of the Wholly Mammoth.

So by all means, lets continue to feed that sickness.

[Third Eye]

Originally Posted by Simplex3

I'm Ok with this.

In order to be Ok with this, though, you have to be prepared to watch people starve to death. You have to be able to bear the images of people lying, sick and dying, with no medical care.

I'm ready. I know very few people that can/would deal with that, though.

Rather or not they are ready, it is coming. Maybe not in my lifetime, but it is coming.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

Apparently you don't. Pity, I can't spell it out any more plainly for you. It must be the same problem I have understanding a mind-set that's "too busy" to take personal responsibility for the food you eat, places you go, etc. Two very different world-views that are simply incompatible.

I didn't say that, or even allude to it. In a perfect world, sure. This isn't. As such, I'll realistically move to acceptance of a MINIMUM of regulation. I'll take this as another of your "I can't specifically address the points you made, so I'll just dismiss it by vastly exaggerating what you said" posts. That's OK. You've proved several times in this thread that's "how you roll".

It's be nice, but there's a reason the word "Utopia" was chosen for the "perfect place".

Already addressed previously. See my previous comments about the necessity of an independent "review" as Private industry (or the FDA itself for that matter) may not be sufficently independent to perform their role.

As you said, no shit, Sherlock. IMO, largely because of folks who encourage a mindset of abdicating personal responsibility because they don't have the time, or are too lazy.

If I found one, why would I fu*k it up by inviting a busybody like you? You'd just come in and start pushing for the same crap.

Busybody?

Dude, you have NO idea who am or how "active" I am but you'd probably be surprised to learn that at heart, I am a Libertarian.

But thanks for engaging in this conversation.

[penguinz]

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

Strange. Some bars here went out of business and blamed it on the smoking ban.

Are you blind? Do you not know the difference between the words Restaurant and Bar?

And the bars will not have problems either if all the communities around them are smoke free also, which is where we are headed at in this area.

[penchief]

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

Consistent exposure would be a good way to qualify all of your vast generalizations. The vast majority of the non-smoking public doesn't get consistent exposure.

1. If smoking in public buildings were allowed, all non-smoking employees, residents, clients, etc. of that building would be exposed to the negative health consequences of second hand smoke. Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

2. Long term health affects are not the only health affects caused by smoking. Aside from heart disease and lung cancer, children are especially susceptible to the affects of second hand smoke. In children, it is known to be a cause of respiratory tract infections, middle ear infections, and increases in the number and severity of asthmatic episodes. It is associated with increased risk of sudden infant death syndrome, as well.

Aside from the underappreciated fact that more people will actually frequent smoke-free establishments in large numbers, there are many other reasons that businesses are prospering after going smoke-free:

1. It's a safer and MORE PRODUCTIVE workplace.

2. Decreased health, life, and fire insurance costs.

3. Lower risk of accidents and decreased cleaning and maintenance costs.

4. The prevention of illness among nonsmoking employees and customers.

Plus, it has been shown that smokers ultimately accept and adjust to smoke-free policies. In other words, they just go outside. And that is what anyone who respects others would do without complaining.

IMO, it's all about respect.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by penguinz

Are you blind? Do you not know the difference between the words Restaurant and Bar?

And the bars will not have problems either if all the communities around them are smoke free also, which is where we are headed at in this area.

Yes, I do know the difference. That's why I read "restaurants" in your post, and keyed "bars" in mine.

I do not know of any restaurants that have been put out of business by the ban. I do know of bars that have been.

I'm glad that even a twit like you knows the difference as well.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

...at heart, I am a Libertarian.

Except when it inconveniences you. Got it.