***Official 2023 STL Cardinals Thread ***

[BigRedChief]

2023 thread. Walker makes the roster. I'll update the rosters and opening day lineup when its official

2023 Opening Day Lineup

Spoiler!

Donovan 2B
Nootbar RF
Goldschmidt 1B
Arenado 3B
Wilson Contreras C
Tyler O'Neill LF
Gorman DH
Jordan Walker RF
Tommy Edman SS

2022 Opening Day roster.

Spoiler!

The Cardinals anticipated 26-player Opening Day roster projects as follows, but will not become official until Thursday, March 30:
PITCHERS (13): Jack Flaherty-RHP, Giovanny Gallegos-RHP, Ryan Helsley-RHP, Jordan Hicks-RHP, Steven Matz-LHP, Miles Mikolas-RHP, Jordan Montgomery-LHP, Packy Naughton-LHP, Andre Pallante-RHP, Chris Stratton-RHP, Zack Thompson-LHP, Drew VerHagen-RHP, and Jake Woodford-RHP;
CATCHERS (2): Willson Contreras and Andrew Knizner;
INFIELDERS (6): Nolan Arenado, Brendan Donovan, Tommy Edman, Paul Goldschmidt, Nolan Gorman and Taylor Motter;
OUTFIELDERS (5): Alec Burleson, Dylan Carlson, Lars Nootbaar, Tyler O’Neill and Jordan Walker;
INJURED LIST (3): Paul DeJong-INF, Wilking Rodríguez-RHP, Adam Wainwright-RHP.

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year, here are some of the historical threads going back to 2006.

Spoiler!

2022 thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...8#post16877588
2021 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=337124
2020 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=329273
2019 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239
2018 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
2012 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254619
etc.
All the way back to 2006 WS
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

His players respected him and played their asses off for him.

Y'all that hold onto a single decision like grim death deserve Ollie Marmol.

We had one of the best in the game and fired him for all the wrong reasons. But keep telling yourself it was justified because that time he brought in a guy because he needed a strikeout.

Here's the rub: I remember you rightly excoriating the Cardinals for letting Tatis slip through their fingers and for passing on Soto. It just so happens that the same franchise that acquired both of those players also hired Shildt, but did so in an advisory capacity. Seems like he would have rated higher than Bob Melvin, or gotten one of the numerous jobs available last year if he was that great of a manager. Who knows, maybe he doesn't interview well.

This isn't a defense of Marmol, but it also was a two-out situation with Reyes. He didn't need a K, he needed a pitcher who could get an out, and while Reyes wasn't a 2014 Wacha situation, it was a 2014 Choate situation.

[BigRedChief]

If the #stlcards maintained their current winning percentage, they would finish the season 52-110.

In 2021 two teams lost 110 games.

Upside: One drafted Jackson Holliday first overall. So there's that.#cardinals #MLB

— Derrick Goold (@dgoold) May 4, 2023

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Here's the rub: I remember you rightly excoriating the Cardinals for letting Tatis slip through their fingers and for passing on Soto. It just so happens that the same franchise that acquired both of those players also hired Shildt, but did so in an advisory capacity. Seems like he would have rated higher than Bob Melvin, or gotten one of the numerous jobs available last year if he was that great of a manager. Who knows, maybe he doesn't interview well.

This isn't a defense of Marmol, but it also was a two-out situation with Reyes. He didn't need a K, he needed a pitcher who could get an out, and while Reyes wasn't a 2014 Wacha situation, it was a 2014 Choate situation.

We saw the IMMEDIATE turnaround in all the major areas a manager can make a difference when he was brought in to replace Matheny. And then we saw a team that played WELL above its station under him.

Say 'well he would've gotten hired if he was all that great' all you want, but again - he took a team that got more than half its starts from guys who never pitched again to 90 wins and the post-season. That team shouldn't have even BEEN there but it made it because of him.

This is the same thing Philly fans said about Andy Reid - "Well he cost us the NFCCG, he sucks!" when in reality he was simply a victim of his own success. He made his teams look better than they were by far but all people wanted to talk about was a tactical decision made/not made.

But y'all got what you wanted - kudos. You 'held him accountable' for not winning a pennant with a team that should've won 80 games. For losing a game where we sent the corpse of Adam Wainwright out there against Max Scherzer and a Dodgers team that had Trae Turner playing 2b and who's 5th starter was Clayton Kershaw. Who had 7 regular's with an OPS over .830 and who ran 4 starters and 4 primary relievers with ERA all in the 2s or lower. What an absolute asshole he was for even having them tied against a far far FAR superior roster going into the 9th. Good job - you got him.

It's worked out great.

Like I said - y'all deserve Ollie.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Ocotillo

Actual manager? Who is out there? Bochy, Showalter, Baker, Francona are all gone. The only established name out there as a FA is Maddon. I would love to have him. Counsell's contract expires after this year. He would be a desired target, too.

Who gives a shit if some guy paid their dues in the minors. There's no actual managing in the minors anyway. And I'm not real impressed with these modern day managerial guys that get promoted from bench coach jobs anyway.

Molina and Pujols know baseball as much as anybody out there and they have the respect of the players. I don't feel like Marmol has the respect of the players. Obviously, there's more to managing than just baseball intel, but it's still not rocket science.

Molina quit on his club. Just flat left town for a month.

And great players like Pujols have always made lousy managers.

[George Liquor]

Nobody has been fired yet, have they?

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Team was booed off the field last night. Never seen that before...

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Oh...and Shildt ****ing sucks but it's a crime that MO fired him to try to save face for himself.

Mo is the villain here. Don't go to a game till he's gone.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

Oh...and Shildt ****ing sucks but it's a crime that MO fired him to try to save face for himself.

Mo is the villain here. Don't go to a game till he's gone.

Cardinals were 53 games above .500 under Shildt with an offense that peaked at 19 during his time. The Cardinals went from one of the worst defensive teams in baseball under Matheny to the best under Shildt.

I was kind of hoping the Cubs would fire idiot David Ross to hire Shildt given the FO's focus on winning games through run prevention instead of actually getting good players.

[DJ's left nut]

Man, it's almost like you could see this shit coming:

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

They're gonna cite Arenado actually being on the payroll in 2022 (as opposed to the Rockies footing the bill) + raises to Wainwright and arb eligible players as justification to make only nominal 'improvements'.

Those nominal moves will be for guys like Andrew Miller who aren't actually improvements over organizational chaff anyway.

Who they need is Corey Seager. A left-handed bat with a plus approach who is a solid shortstop and has plenty of post-season experience. He's not quite as good a fit as Harper was 3 years ago, but he's close.

If they dip into the SS market at all it will be for Story because he's older (thus less term) and had a bad platform season, so his AAV isn't likely to be as high as the Correa/Seager/Semien trio.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

A fanbase that pats itself on the back for giving standing ovations to pieces of shit like Brandon Moss, calls a manager that dragged a flawed ass team into the post-season 'terrible' and is constantly shitting on Edmonds in the booth while praising Brad Thompson deserves a mouth-breathing empty suit like Matheny back in the dugout.

Sure, why not. Matheny and Mozeliak are perfect for each other. And for the BFIB.

****ing bullshit organization man.

Yadier Molina 4-pack ticket bundles and the all new Edmundo Sosa victory blue shirseys go on sale in just a couple of months, fans! Get yours now!!!!

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Yes.

But again, Cardinal Nation hates Jim Edmonds on the call and loves Brad Thompson. They jerk off to performative standing ovations for guys who got traded to the team like Brandon Moss.

Cardinal Nation is roundly reeruned and deserves John Mozeliak and his corporate babble bullshit.

Because for some reason they think that setting $400 million on fire is okay because 1/2 the teams in the NL aren't even trying to win and hey, we're better than those guys...

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I’d probable lay 3-1 odds that it'll be Oliver Marmol.

And I'm just gonna say this - if anyone thinks that Marmol is a smarter, more capable baseball guy than Mike Shildt, theyre going to be REALLY disappointed.

Frankly, anyone who disliked Shildt, who did so much to return this franchise to the Cardinal Way style of play despite Mos best efforts, youre going to dislike whoever replaces him. If youre extremely lucky that manager will win more games playing a far less entertaining brand of baseball.

But more likely hes going to win fewer games, drive you just as crazy over a 162 game season and take this team further away from the product you wanted to see.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Bill DeWitt says his goal is to win 87 games. Shildt has averaged a pro-rated 91/season in his time at manager.

They absolutely tolerate being slightly better than average so long as your a quiet little yes man when Mozeliak tells you that he's going to get get you Jon Lester and JA Happ to save your season.

Sounds like Shildt saw $60 million in completely unproductive roster chaff come off the payroll and was no longer willing to bite his tongue.

This is all about Mozeliak needing a puppet manager and DeWitt continuing to be snowed by this ****ing charlatan.

Or that the "Reyes Decision" hasn't been beaten to ****ing death already when in all actuality he had ONE true alternative available in Kodi Whitley:

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

No - he had ONE guy that was maybe a better option. Maybe.

You can't send Flaherty or Hudson out there - you just can't. That's the same shit Matheny did with Wacha and was justifiably barbecued for it. Those are 'clean inning' pitchers who need to know well in advance when they're going in. Those are guys who have started literally their entire careers - you can't just have them hot in a single batter.

Whitley was the one guy who was a better option. Oh, and by the way, Whitley had a 6 ERA in the first half. It was Shildt who got him back on the horse, worked him back into shape through lower leverage spots to rehab his confidence and then ultimately moved him into high leverage roles. But/for the work of Shildt to get Whitley back into form, you'd have even less to complain about.

Shildt was a victim of his own success in the post-season. It's no different than dipshit Philly fans who blamed Reid for not winning a SB with McNabb - the only reason he had that kind of show was the excellent work he did in making McNabb appear better than he was.

No, I'm not going to pretend that a guy who averaged a 91 win/season clip with a roster that was about 40% wasted payroll is a terrible manager because he went to a high-strikeout reliever in the 9th after he made the right call in going to Gallegos in the 8th only to see him get hurt (and he STILL made that into a smart decision by sending Gallegos out there knowing he wouldn't pitch to get LAD to burn Lux off the bench).

Shildt is a damn good manager. I've laid out a myriad of reasons why and in response I get one pitching decision and a whopping 14 games started in the 2nd half of the season from Matt Carpenter. Nevermind the fact that Carpenter starting wasn't a Shildt problem - it was a result of the fact that Carpenter was somehow the best LH alternative Shildt had available. "BUT HE BATTED CARPENTER CLEANUP!!" - 4 times. 16 ABs from the cleanup spot over the entire damn season. Oh, and Carpenter had a .438 OBP in those situations, for what that's worth.

But yeah - terrible manager. Counsel made a more egregious decision w/ the early hook for Woodruff and bizarre reliance on a gassed Ashby to lose their series against a team that was half as good as the Dodgers - guess it's time to fire him. Kapler lost game 5 with a dude who was in the minors with a 7.59 ERA in August on the bump - guess we gotta fire his ass, too. MIKE TAUCHMANN BATTED CLEANUP THAT ONE TIME!! HE HAD A .178 BATTING AVERAGE!! TOMMY LASTELLA GOT 240 PLATE APPEARANCES WITH A .308 OBP - FIRE KAPLER.

Just rank ignorance.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

No, he didn't.

And you're absolutely right regarding Whitley - to whatever extent he'd proven anything, Shildt played a key role in coaxing that out of him after an awful start to the year. Again - Kapler did the same thing with Doval in San Fran (who had a very similar season to Whitley early and like Whitley had turned things around into September) and Doval lost the game for him. This idea that Shildt had some magic bullet is just asinine.

The problem with leaving McFarland in is that he's pretty defenseless against righties at this point in his career. He doesn't throw hard enough to get it inside on them so he has to nibble. Then you look at Taylor who even in off years hits lefties extremely hard and you've got a real matchup disadvantage there.

Meanwhile Taylor's bat has been extremely slow most of the season and righties can either throw it past him or knock the bat out of his hands. Reyes and his fastball was actually a really good matchup for an aggressive hitter who struggles against high velocity righties, especially with the movement Reyes gets on his fastball.

You want someone to blame - how 'bout you blame everyone's sweet baboo, Yadier Molina? Reyes stayed on top of his first slider to get a swinging strike. Then he backed up his second slider and it frisbeed for a ball. You could see him open up and slice around the pitch as he delivered it. When Yadi sees that Reyes slider isn't consistent because he's released it two different ways, he has to take note of that.

He didn't. He called for a third slider to a guy with a slider speed bat who'd just been able to get his bat slowed down by seeing two consecutive sliders. Then Yadi boxes the throw down when Belligner steals 2nd. At that point he has no business going back to the slider - he needs to attack Taylor because now he knows Taylor's going to be looking for something to hack at in an RBI spot and with Reyes late movement, even a pitch that runs out of the zone (as most of Reyes do) is going to coax soft contact.

Reyes was a fine matchup call for Taylor. Not exactly what I'd have done, but eminently defensible. Then Yadi failed to execute on the SB attempt and did a poor job with pitch selection against a hitter who you just cannot throw 3 sliders to when you're obviously able to overmatch him.

But hey - fire Shildt. Terrible manager or something.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

You can't run Flaherty or Hudson out there - they're starting pitchers and the Gallegos fingernail thing popped up on him. You can't ask guys used to starting to get hot that quickly - they're just not used to it.

Cabrera has been just as erratic as Reyes of late.

I'd have gone with Whitley, personally. And tried to get through the 9th while giving Flaherty time to get warm. But in the end, it probably didn't matter. They weren't hitting.

I don't see how anyone can say Shildt is a terrible manager after seeing how the defense turned around literally overnight when he took over and initiated new shifting, etc... The guy took the team to 90+ wins with a bunch of shit that nobody else wanted throwing the ball for him.

Mike Shildt is no worse than a very good manager. Cash is better, Kapler is probably better (though Kapler had his issues in Philly). Cora also seems to be quite good.

Who the **** else? Snitker? The guy Shildt ran circles around in 2019? Baker? A guy who's done less with more than any manager in MLB history? Sweet Jesus please don't say Maddon - that guys an overrated kook. Boone? Who can't manage a $225 million payroll?

There are a few guys who I'd put in the same tier with him. Probably Bob Melvin and maybe Scott Servais. Mike Shildt will have won a MOTY award and rec'd votes in all 4 seasons he led this team. Calling him a terribly manager just screams of ignorance of what goes on outside of this organization.

There aren't a half dozen guys in baseball I'd take over him.

This decision was stupid and petty.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Lester and Happ - both lefties, both starters. You want to go from a productive lefty reliever to a lefty starter on short warmup to face a guy that smokes lefties. And I'm supposed to pretend you're paying attention to ANYTHING I've said thus far?

I haven't given you excuses, champ. I've given you reasons. Answers. I've bought you the books and you're eating the pages. You're actually making WORSE arguments as you go somehow. I point out that you don't throw starters out there like they're relievers and that we've seen a dozen times how that's gone - INCLUDING one of the more egregious examples of it in living memory with Michael Wacha and your answer is to cite 2 more starting pitchers. I've told you why leaving a lefty in there to face Taylor is a bad decision, especially one with fringe stuff who can't work inside well anymore and you give me two MORE lefties with fringe stuff - STARTERS at that.

And you just blow right on by the fact that it was Molina who boxed an easy throw/catch on a stolen base attempt that would've gotten them out of the inning and called 3 sliders in 4 pitchers to a guy with a slider speed bat when he knew (or should have known) that Reyes mechanics were off.

As for your Carpenter haranguing: Again - 14 starts in the second half of the season. I'm not 'downplaying it' - I'm telling you he started 14 goddamn games in the 2nd half of the season and you're the one ignoring that Shildt CLEARLY sidelined Matt Carpenter.

I point out several different examples of 'great' managers who have decisions within the last couple of weeks as bad/worse than Shildt going to Reyes and...{crickets}. I show you any number of hurdles Shildt had to clear, times he's had to coax genuinely excellent performances out of an insanely flawed roster to get to 91 wins. I explain his role in making those wins happen.

Point after point, answer after answer, and I essentially get 'NUH UH, HE SUCKS!' and I'm supposed to act like you know your ass from a hole in the ground?

You can betray your own ignorance all you want. It's clear you know precisely **** all about what you're seeing. You honest to god just suggested going from a lefthanded reliever to two lefthanded starters ahead of Alex Reyes and expect to be taken seriously.

Jesus Christ, you can't even spell his name right. But please, continue to lecture me on how poor a job he's done. You're clearly right on top of it.

Like I said - weapons grade stupidity.

Or that many of y'all absolutely refused to spot the forest for the trees:

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Shildt managed the hell out of this squad.

A paper thin roster full of cast-offs from other organizations, no discerinable bench talent, decaying players on shit contracts and octogenarian starting pitchers that Shildt managed to get damn nice productivity out of.

When everyone had written them off, he got them playing their best ball of the season. And yeah, I'd have gone Whitley over Reyes, but FFS, they were 0-11 w/ RISP. He can't hit for 'em. That game could've gone 4 more innings and we still lose.

Mike Shildt is a DAMN good major league manager. Meanwhile John Mozeliak has done a piss poor job for about 8 years now and he's ****ing bulletproof.

Shildt saved Mozeliak's job in 2018 and frankly he may have pulled his ass from the fire again this year. And his reward was getting fired by a guy who's nowhere near as good at building a team as Shildt is at running it.

I hope Mike Shannon was right and Bill DeWitt is looking to sell the team. That guy's as senile as Biden at this point. This is goddamn asinine.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Harrison Bader has had known coachibility issues his entire MLB career - plays the entire month of September like it's game 7 of the World Series and "Shildt had Jack Shit to do with it..." His 22 yr old RFer who'd struggled with his confidence in run production situations all season becomes a key RBI bat after Shildt shows confidence in him but nah - nothing. Edmundo Sosa is given the keys to SS and is a critical energy guy, defensive stalwart and out of nowhere offensive contributor to lengthen the order - **** that Shildt guy, he wasn't the one who put him in the starting lineup or anything.

The streak is fueled by Tyler O'Neill who went supernova when moved into the 3 hole which gave Goldschmidt more pitches to hit and Arenado more RBI opportunities nd Dylan Carlson got moved into the 5 and blossomed - "Shildt had nothing to do with it"

Guy's dealing with a starting staff that you have to be SUPER cautious with because it's a bunch of old dudes with fringe stuff or a rookie with only two pitches so you have to be really aware on your hook, especially as they get through the order a 3rd time - "Shildt had nothing to do with it". And because of that hook, you have to get through 3-4 relievers most nights without finding one that will lose it for you - "Shildt. Jack. Shit."

****ing ignorant. Just weapons grade stupidity.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/colu...cab719ff8.html

This is why Shildt got fired and it had nothing to do with his ability as a manager.

He didn't kiss the ring so he got canned.

This is the money quote. This is thing I said the organization REALLY lost when it lost Larussa:



The problem is now we'll never have it as long as Mozeliak is here because he now how plenary authority to fire anyone that dares seek it out. LaRussa challenged his front office and the front office had to respond because LaRussa was the louder voice. Now he's never going to run that risk again. He saw the potential and snuffed it out.

There's some fermi paradox analogues or even fascism ones, but they're both belaboring the point. Bottom line is that this is going to be an organization full of mincy little yes men until Mozeliak is gone. And Mozeliak isn't going to be gone until DeWitt is.

****ing John Mozeliak.

We had an excellent manager. We fired him for the wrong reasons. We kept the wrong people. Now this franchise is a joke.

But yeah - he called in Reyes once. And "regardless of past history, that's a fireable offense..."

Good ****ing call, fellas. Keep doubling down on that temper tantrum you threw 2 years ago. It's yielded spectacular results.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

He'll never get a head job again I'd bet

[Pasta Little Brioni]

**** Shildt.

[DJ's left nut]

Brilliant, as ever...

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by jd1020

Cardinals were 53 games above .500 under Shildt with an offense that peaked at 19 during his time. The Cardinals went from one of the worst defensive teams in baseball under Matheny to the best under Shildt.

I was kind of hoping the Cubs would fire idiot David Ross to hire Shildt given the FO's focus on winning games through run prevention instead of actually getting good players.

He's never been able to marshal an argument of any sort in support of his dipshittery.

Marcellus and Hamas were just asshurt by a questionable decision but we've all been there before.

Pasta, on the other hand, was always dumb as a ****ing hammer and has never really even attempted to establish otherwise.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Man, it's almost like you could see this shit coming:

Spoiler!

Or that the "Reyes Decision" hasn't been beaten to ****ing death already when in all actuality he had ONE true alternative available in Kodi Whitley:

Spoiler!

Or that many of y'all absolutely refused to spot the forest for the trees:

Spoiler!

We had an excellent manager. We fired him for the wrong reasons. We kept the wrong people. Now this franchise is a joke.

But yeah - he called in Reyes once. And "regardless of past history, that's a fireable offense..."

Good ****ing call, fellas. Keep doubling down on that temper tantrum you threw 2 years ago. It's yielded spectacular results.

That whole game was mismanaged. He pulled Waino after 95 pitches when he had given up six baserunners in 5 1/3. He pulled Gallegos after 12 easy pitches, and after he pulled McFarland, he passed over Cabrera, who had 71 appearances that season for Reyes. And Taylor doesn't have a platoon split.

Yeah, the team won 18 straight games, but that's a statistical anomaly borne of sequencing, not wizardry. It's the same reason why they've never been able to recreate their 2013 production with RISP.

He won 90 games playing almost 60 of them against teams that weren't actively interested in winning.

Oddly once the shift was eliminated, the Cardinals' philosophy of pitching to contact has been exposed as anachronistic. And for all the hate towards Molina, he historically depressed ERA.

Is Marmol unfit to manage? Yeah. But the problem isn't Marmol and the solution isn't Shildt; the problem is ownership and the solution is making them care or making them sell.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I don't think we really disagree on the ultimate solution though, and all this bickering is distracting from the real problem-- much like Cassel, Haley, Crennel, Tyson Jackson et. al weren't the real problem but a symptom of the broader disease.