Francona out in Chowda land???

[Carlota69]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/0...-francona.html

The Latest On Terry Francona
By Mike Axisa [September 30 at 12:18pm CST]

As we learned last night and early this morning, the Red Sox and long-time manager Terry Francona are parting ways. Let's round up the latest on both the man and the team...

* Brian MacPherson of The Providence Journal says that Francona and owners John Henry and Tom Werner all left Fenway Park after a 10am ET meeting this morning without making a comment. The meeting was held to discuss the team's future, and no official announcement has been made about Francona.
* Mike Lynch of WCTB TV in Boston reports that Red Sox GM Theo Epstein told management that Francona wasn't working out six weeks ago because of a "lack of urgency." Francona was voted out 3-0 a few weeks later.
* Nick Cafardo of The Boston Globe says this is a truly mutual split, however (Twitter link). Francona would have been willing to stay on if some issues were worked out.
* There's a non-zero chance that Francona lands with the White Sox, but Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter) that they won't pay big money for a manager unless it's Tony LaRussa.
* In another tweet, Knobler says that an Epstein-Francona package seemed possible for the Cubs at one point, but he doesn't think it's likely now.
* Dan Connolly of The Baltimore Sun doesn't see Francona managing the Orioles next year for several reasons.

[JD10367]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

I can see Theo also jumping ship here in the next week or two.

I actually hope he does, because I think he was the bigger part of the problem. If you're going to hold the manager accountable (in this case, a bit unfairly so, IMO) then you have to do the same with the GM. Get a new GM, let him pick his new manager, and get going weeding out the shitheads from the players who actually try hard.

I actually like quite a bit of the team. Pedroia and Youkilis seem like solid clubhouse guys and, when not injured, contribute greatly. Jacoby Ellsbury showed he deserves a big payday. AGon tailed off a bit but still had solid numbers. Crawford they're stuck with, and just have to hope he rebounds. Saltalamacchia can hold the fort until Lavarnway is ready to take it over. I think the end of the line is here for Varitek, as well as Ortiz (and Wakefield, of course). Scutaro's okay until they get someone better. One good hitter puts this lineup back on track, I think. The starting pitching staff is the bigger issue (the consistency of Lester, the health of Buchholz, what to do with Beckett to get him motivated to stay in shape, how to get rid of Lackey ASAP). Relievers can use more depth, although I think they have a keeper in Aceves. They're going to have to re-sign Papelbon, like it or not (even with the blown save in the final game, he'd blown few this season, and Bard clearly isn't ready to even remain the 8th-inning guy let alone the closer).

It's amazing the fine line between winning and losing. If Buchholz was healthy, or Youkilis, or Bard didn't collapse, or Wakefield didn't lose 374 in a row trying to win #200... I mean, they only missed out by ONE freakin' win. If they'd gotten into the playoffs, and somehow won the opening series, all would've been forgiven regarding September and Francona wouldn't now be looking for a job. (Same goes for the Patriots. Belichick was close to being fired in 2000 before Mo Lewis knocked Drew Bledsoe into the hospital. Then after that you had the Tuck Rule Snow Bowl game against Oakland. Then you had Adam Vinatieri's FG to put that game in OT and then win it, plus his FGs making the difference in all three Super Bowls... A few different breaks and, not only is Belichick not looked upon as a genius, but he's probably slogging away in Carolina or Jacksonville or somewhere still trying to get out of Bill Parcells's shadow.)

[MIAdragon]

Originally Posted by JD10367

I actually hope he does, because I think he was the bigger part of the problem.

No argument here, Theo is not the answer. He is on the "right place at the right time" train and that shit needs to stop.

Originally Posted by JD10367

I actually like quite a bit of the team. Pedroia and Youkilis seem like solid clubhouse guys and, when not injured, contribute greatly.

Ive see quite a bit lately that says otherwise, I was like you and thought he was solid but it seems he's been part of the problem with the recent events. I know he was quite vocal about Jacoby and his injuries last season but I guess its much more than that.

Originally Posted by JD10367

AGon tailed off a bit but still had solid numbers.

He was fighting calf issues as well as problems with the same shoulder he had surgery on in the off season, hope that's not a chronic problem.

Originally Posted by JD10367

Crawford they're stuck with, and just have to hope he rebounds.

I just dont understand where this suck came from, its rather perplexing.

Originally Posted by JD10367

Saltalamacchia can hold the fort until Lavarnway is ready to take it over.

Salty looks great then he looks like ass, I think the season really took a toll on him late. He earned another season before we make any decisions on what he is or isn't. The concern with Ryan is if he can stick behind the dish, if not his bat may not be good enough to play 1st or DH.

Originally Posted by JD10367

I think the end of the line is here for Varitek, as well as Ortiz (and Wakefield, of course).

All of these guys need to go, close the book turn over a new leaf whatever you want to say just get the **** out.

Originally Posted by JD10367

Scutaro's okay until they get someone better.

Im SO ready to have a decent fielding SS in Fenway its not even funny. Id like to see one of the Kids we have get a shot next season.

Originally Posted by JD10367

. The starting pitching staff is the bigger issue (the consistency of Lester, the health of Buchholz, what to do with Beckett to get him motivated to stay in shape, how to get rid of Lackey ASAP).

Buch shouldnt have any lasting effect from his injury, Lester and Beckett will be fine when we punt that **** face Lacky. I can see us paying a team ( like the Padres) to take him.

Originally Posted by JD10367

Relievers can use more depth, although I think they have a keeper in Aceves. They're going to have to re-sign Papelbon, like it or not (even with the blown save in the final game, he'd blown few this season, and Bard clearly isn't ready to even remain the 8th-inning guy let alone the closer).

I think Bard is ready he was simply over worked that being said I think they still make a run at paps I just dont want to overspend, and I think thats whats going to happen whomever signs the guy.

Originally Posted by JD10367

It's amazing the fine line between winning and losing. If Buchholz was healthy, or Youkilis, or Bard didn't collapse, or Wakefield didn't lose 374 in a row trying to win #200... I mean, they only missed out by ONE freakin' win. If they'd gotten into the playoffs, and somehow won the opening series, all would've been forgiven regarding September and Francona wouldn't now be looking for a job. (Same goes for the Patriots. Belichick was close to being fired in 2000 before Mo Lewis knocked Drew Bledsoe into the hospital. Then after that you had the Tuck Rule Snow Bowl game against Oakland. Then you had Adam Vinatieri's FG to put that game in OT and then win it, plus his FGs making the difference in all three Super Bowls... A few different breaks and, not only is Belichick not looked upon as a genius, but he's probably slogging away in Carolina or Jacksonville or somewhere still trying to get out of Bill Parcells's shadow.)

Yep, although It sucks loosing Tito but I think in the long run this may be the best for the team, a Paradigm Shift was desperately needed. The current team has the talent to win it all just need to put it all together.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

I just dont understand where this suck came from, its rather perplexing.

I just don't understand why people thought Crawford was ever good in the first place. Call me old school, but players like Crawford frustrate the shit out of me. Leadoff hitters shouldn't be free swingers. If you're Ichiro and can sling a .330 average, fine. If you're Soriano and can get well over 20 HRs fine. People get such boners over overall Batting Average and Stolen Bases. I'd much rather a relatively fast leadoff hitter who takes pitches, lets the rest of the lineup see what the pitcher and the umpire have got, and I care a shitload more about On Base % than I do batting average. Pedroia... while I hate the Red Sox, there's a guy I can rally around. Boston fans should know this. Johnny Damon was great at forcing 5+ pitch at bats. Wade Boggs was the ****ing master at it. Pretty powerful when one guy like Boggs can single-handedly bring your pitch count up to 10 in one at bat.

The fact that Epstein thought Carl Crawford was the answer shows how inept he is.

[MIAdragon]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I just don't understand why people thought Crawford was ever good in the first place. Call me old school, but players like Crawford frustrate the shit out of me. Leadoff hitters shouldn't be free swingers. If you're Ichiro and can sling a .330 average, fine. If you're Soriano and can get well over 20 HRs fine. People get such boners over overall Batting Average and Stolen Bases. I'd much rather a relatively fast leadoff hitter who takes pitches, lets the rest of the lineup see what the pitcher and the umpire have got, and I care a shitload more about On Base % than I do batting average. Pedroia... while I hate the Red Sox, there's a guy I can rally around. Boston fans should know this. Johnny Damon was great at forcing 5+ pitch at bats. Wade Boggs was the ****ing master at it. Pretty powerful when one guy like Boggs can single-handedly bring your pitch count up to 10 in one at bat.

The fact that Epstein thought Carl Crawford was the answer shows how inept he is.

First he's NOT the Sox's lead off hitter and only hit first in Tampa for his first few seasons. Ya know what else Boston fans "know" Johnny Damon NEVER sniffed 5+ PPA (no one ever has) in fact the difference in PPA between CC (3.89 PPA) and JD (4.03 PPA) equate to a whole .56 pitches over a 4 AB game, HOLY ****ING SHIT. If you want to shit on CC there are better trees to bark up but please before calling out fans at least get your argument straight.

and to your last sentence WTF? Theo is inept because he had to have someone play LF and he signed one?

[Rams Fan]

I will say this, I think Theo's overrated, but it's too early to judge the Crawford signing.

He had one bad season.

Now, I do think it is fair to say that the Lackey, Drew, Dice-K, Cameron signings did not work out that well.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

First he's NOT the Sox's lead off hitter and only hit first in Tampa for his first few seasons. Ya know what else Boston fans "know" Johnny Damon NEVER sniffed 5+ PPA (no one ever has) in fact the difference in PPA between CC (3.89 PPA) and JD (4.03 PPA) equate to a whole .56 pitches over a 4 AB game, HOLY ****ING SHIT. If you want to shit on CC there are better trees to bark up but please before calling out fans at least get your argument straight.

and to your last sentence WTF? Theo is inept because he had to have someone play LF and he signed one?

I classify Crawford as a leadoff hitter because he doesn't fit in anywhere. He steals a ton of bases so a lot of teams will put him in the #1 or #2 slot. He started the season off hitting mostly in the #2 slot. He's too much of a free-swinger to be a #1 or #2 guy and doesn't hit for enough power to hit 3, 4, or 5. So his only place is as a #6 or #7 guy. Clearly worth the $125M. Clearly.

And yes, Theo should be grilled to high hell for bringing Crawford in. The Chiefs needed a Quarterback, so we should be satisfied they brought in Cassel? Tell me... what $125M value does Crawford bring to the team? You said Crawford's suckage caught you by surprise. Anyone who's followed Crawford will tell you he's a free-swinger who doesn't take pitches, chases after bad pitches, and puts up average stats to the common person. He doesn't walk. Hits for average average. He hits an average # of home runs and doubles. He's just an average player, even though his statistics indicate otherwise. Crawford's a good guy to bring on your team, but no way is he worth that coin.

And no, Johnny Damon doesn't average 5 pitches per AB. Who the **** would? That doesn't mean he doesn't force a lot of 5+ pitch ABs. Damon and Boggs are two guys who will take a bad pitch and are very good at fouling off strikes they don't like. Carl Crawford is going to hack at strikes and bad pitches. That's why he's garbage right now.

[chiefzilla1501]

By the way, Bagwell wrote a great column on Crawford:
http://www.bloodysox.com/2011/05/02/...rth-the-money/
Check out the bottom. Brings up some really great points. Two of Crawford's greatest assets are SBs and fielding. His fielding is significantly less useful in Fenway (in fact, due to his weak arm strength, he's gone from phenomenal to above average... for the 81 home games, that is). He's not a good hitter at Fenway because of the ridiculously deep right-center porch.

And that's added on to my point that players with poor plate discipline don't do your lineup any favors. Puzzling, because the Red Sox have so many players that are great at it. Maybe that's a good influence on him.

Little about the deal adds up. I thought it was an amateur move by a guy with a big pocket book. These are the kinds of moves the Yankees were foolishly making 10 years ago.

[KC_Connection]

Love that the Red Sox have driven off one of the best managers in baseball and are now doing the same to one of the best GMs.

Best September collapse ever.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Love that the Red Sox have driven off one of the best managers in baseball and are now doing the same to one of the best GMs.

Best September collapse ever.

I don't know what to really think about Epstein. He had an unbelievably brilliant start, but his recent years of moves have left a lot to be desired and in a very, very expensive way. I don't know why this is happening. But it seems pretty clear that the problems start with him. He made poor, expensive free agent moves and clearly built a team that had no chemistry (for a manager who values chemistry a lot). Unlike the NFL, you can't just ship these guys off. You have to live with bad decisions for years and years.

It's curious. Years ago, when the Yankees were making horrible moves for players like Sheffield and Kevin Brown, it was because Steinbreinner was listening to bad advice from people not named Brian Cashman. I wonder if something similar is going on here. Or maybe once he received a blank check, he got Daniel Snyder greedy. I don't know. But his moves in the early decade are too brilliant to ignore and I think the Sox have to figure out how to get him back on track. The Yankees are a great example of a team that did that--it's a lot easier to do when you have a Yankees/Boston like payroll.

[booger]

Cubs ask permission to speak to Epstein
Print | Comments (90) Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff October 4, 2011 06:10 PM

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

Globe colleague Dan Shaughnessy has learned from a team source that the Chicago Cubs have asked the Red Sox for permission to speak with Theo Epstein regarding a position in their organization.

According to Shaughnessy, there were meetings at Fenway Park this afternoon regarding the team's response to the request.

Because Epstein is under contract, the Red Sox would have the right to refuse such a request. They could grant it with the condition that some sort of compensation be made in exchange for hiring Epstein. Or Epstein could decline the interest.

Epstein is two months away from the ninth anniversary of his hiring as general manager of the Sox. Only seven other active general managers have been with the same team longer. He turns 38 in December and could be seeking a new challenge within baseball.

Or he could be trying to leverage the interest from the Cubs into a new contract and/or more power with the Red Sox.

If Epstein were to leave the Red Sox, senior vice president and assistant general manager Ben Cherington would be a logical replacement. Cherington has been with the Red Sox since 1999 and was one of the team officials who replaced Epstein during his three-month departure in 2005.

Cherington was a participant in the meeting on Friday that led to Terry Francona’s departure, a sign of his stature within the organization.

More to come on this in the Globe tomorrow and on Boston.com later on today.
http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...sk_permis.html

[booger]

Looks like the Cubs are forcing their hand on this with interest in the Sox assistant GM too.



The Cubs are also thought to have some interest in Red Sox assistant GM Ben Cherington. Complicating things there is that Cherington would almost certainly step in for the Red Sox if Epstein leaves.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-theo-epstein/

[booger]

Originally Posted by JD10367

Doubtful. Knowing this ownership they'll try to do something splashy, like steal Cashman from the Yankees and see if Joe Torre will come back to coaching.

Frankly, what I think the Red Sox honestly need is to suck. To suck long and hard. To the point where New Englanders no longer fixate on the team and start to ignore it, and attendance drops, and the giant corporation that is the Red Sox loses merchandising money and TV revenue. Once the team is in disarray and no longer the focus, they might actually be able to hire decent low-profile people and get something done. Right now, it's like trying to have your best sex in front of a live TV audience. There's no way, next season, anything they do will turn out to be anything but a giant circus.

didn't think of that aspect of it with Hale. Seems like he is highly thought of though.

[booger]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

I think Demarlo would be an ideal candidate but he was part of the staff that lost the clubhouse (and the alleged reason for letting Tito go) so I don't see how you can Blame Tito and let everyone else slide. IMO the need a new voice, someone young to come in a kick some ass. The last time we needed a manager after Little the final 2 candidates were Tito and Joe Maddon. I have no doubt the FO will come up with someone that can get the job done.

I can see Theo also jumping ship here in the next week or two.

Get ready for a healthy roster shakeup as well. Change like this sucks.

looks like it's starting

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal

Sources: Francona to manage #Indians. Announcement likely Monday.

[MIAdragon]

Originally Posted by ChiefsandO'sfan

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal

Sources: Francona to manage #Indians. Announcement likely Monday.

Good for Tito.