Should Penn State Get the Death Penalty?

[Trivers]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/481264...lege_football/


Looks like officials are going from Penn State to state pen. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

What say ye? If so, for how long?

[-King-]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So why not just nuke Happy Valley?

Where the hell does it end? Penn State isn't a monolith, it's an organization that is composed of tens of thousands of wholly innocent people that will have their livelihoods irreversably damaged by the decision you want to make. Poor schlubs like the history teacher are going to lose their jobs because this decision will go FAR beyond the football program.

There is no such thing as "Penn State: Collective Institution". There is Penn State, a major state college with a billion dollar economy that had assholes at the top, assholes that did an exceptional job of hiding the fact that they were assholes.

But in the end, when the guys at the very top of the ladder are actively concealing criminal conduct, no amount of oversight is going to be able to fix it because who executes on it? There's always someone at the top of any organizational structure that's capable of bringing that structure to its knees. Unfortunately for Penn State - those men did just that in this instance.

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with what Penn State as an entity did here. They did what every single major University in the country dos. They also had the misfortune of a very insular group of people at the top of the ladder engaging in unacceptable conduct.

Doesn't this logic apply to any big NCAA controversy? You'll always have 99.9999% of individuals who have done nothing wrong but are indirectly punished anyway. You think nobody other than the football team was affected by the SMU death penalty?

If it turned out that Bill Self had been paying off all his recruits since he got to Kansas, you'd want their basketball program punished even though it was just one man that was in the wrong.

If the NCAA isn't going to act on this, why should they act on anything wrong-doing by any other school? Punishing schools will always negatively impact thousands of people. I'm pretty sure a lot of people were negatively impacted when the NCAA took scholarships, titles, and banned USC from bowl games. All because Reggie Bush and OJ mayo were given a house/money.

If the NCAA can punish a school for two players receiving gifts, then they damn well punish a school for 4 high ranking officials covering up child rape.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

This is the most ridiculously overblown case I've ever seen in my entire life the lengths this goes to is ridiculous, insanity, seriously.

Where's this outrage when this happens to normal people. Dudes going to prison for life, Paterno is dead and disgraced what the **** do you people want. Should Kansas City close because of Bob Bordella? How about the Westport Flea Market he had a booth at?

That dude was 10 zillion times sicker than Sandusky on his worst day.

Agreed.

[bevischief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? It's Board of Curators? It's students? It's teachers, athletes, rank and file administrators?

Penn State did what every major state university in the country does - it put a few men at the top of its hierarchy and in positions of authority. Penn State's command/oversight structure is no different than any other school's; it's pretty much standard fare. By all outward appearances for 99.999% of the individuals associated with Penn State, nobody had done anything wrong or had reason to believe they had.

The problem is that the 4 men at the top of that chain lied, deceived and covered up evidence of some extraordinarily heinous acts. One of those men is dead and the other 3 are going to pay dearly for it. Those are the people that need to be punished, not the poor souls that are taking over for them. Not the students, teachers, etc... that had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

Penn State has done nothing wrong. Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno did and they will be punished for their conduct. To try to ascribe their conduct to an entire University system and make a decision that will negatively impact thousands of completely innocent parties is the worst kind of mob mentality and nothing more than a witch hunt.

I agree with this statement.

[ReynardMuldrake]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So why not just nuke Happy Valley?

Where the hell does it end? Penn State isn't a monolith, it's an organization that is composed of tens of thousands of wholly innocent people that will have their livelihoods irreversably damaged by the decision you want to make. Poor schlubs like the history teacher are going to lose their jobs because this decision will go FAR beyond the football program.

There is no such thing as "Penn State: Collective Institution". There is Penn State, a major state college with a billion dollar economy that had assholes at the top, assholes that did an exceptional job of hiding the fact that they were assholes.

But in the end, when the guys at the very top of the ladder are actively concealing criminal conduct, no amount of oversight is going to be able to fix it because who executes on it? There's always someone at the top of any organizational structure that's capable of bringing that structure to its knees. Unfortunately for Penn State - those men did just that in this instance.

This argument doesn't wash. Just about every person serving time in prison has a family. Should we let some convicted felon go free because his kids are innocent and shouldn't be deprived of a father? Of course not. By that rationale nobody would ever get convicted because you can always find an innocent 3rd party that would be affected.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with what Penn State as an entity did here. They did what every single major University in the country does. They also had the misfortune of a very insular group of people at the top of the ladder engaging in unacceptable conduct.

So you seriously think Penn State is the victim here?

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? It's Board of Curators? It's students? It's teachers, athletes, rank and file administrators?

Penn State did what every major state university in the country does - it put a few men at the top of its hierarchy and in positions of authority. Penn State's command/oversight structure is no different than any other school's; it's pretty much standard fare. By all outward appearances for 99.999% of the individuals associated with Penn State, nobody had done anything wrong or had reason to believe they had.

The problem is that the 4 men at the top of that chain lied, deceived and covered up evidence of some extraordinarily heinous acts. One of those men is dead and the other 3 are going to pay dearly for it. Those are the people that need to be punished, not the poor souls that are taking over for them. Not the students, teachers, etc... that had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

[I]Penn State[/I] has done nothing wrong. Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno did and they will be punished for their conduct. To try to ascribe their conduct to an entire University system and make a decision that will negatively impact thousands of completely innocent parties is the worst kind of mob mentality and nothing more than a witch hunt.

Exactly this. Torches and pitch forks.

[-King-]

Originally Posted by ReynardMuldrake

This argument doesn't wash. Just about every person serving time in prison has a family. Should we let some convicted felon go free because his kids are innocent and shouldn't be deprived of a father? Of course not. By that rationale nobody would ever get convicted because you can always find an innocent 3rd party that would be affected.

[-King-]

Originally Posted by vailpass

Exactly this. Torches and pitch forks.

So should USC have been punished for Reggie Bush's and OJ Mayo's violations? Bush was in his 6th year in the NFL when the punishment was handed down. OJ Mayo was in his 3rd in the NBA.

What about Ohio State being punished for Pryor and Tressels violations when both had left?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by -King-

Doesn't this logic apply to any big NCAA controversy? You'll always have 99.9999% of individuals who have done nothing wrong but are indirectly punished anyway. You think nobody other than the football team was affected by the SMU death penalty?

If it turned out that Bill Self had been paying off all his recruits since he got to Kansas, you'd want their basketball program punished even though it was just one man that was in the wrong.

If the NCAA isn't going to act on this, why should they act on anything wrong-doing by any other school? Punishing schools will always negatively impact thousands of people. I'm pretty sure a lot of people were negatively impacted when the NCAA took scholarships, titles, and banned USC from bowl games. All because Reggie Bush and OJ mayo were given a house/money.

If the NCAA can punish a school for two players receiving gifts, then they damn well punish a school for 4 high ranking officials covering up child rape.

No, they can't. The NCAA By-Laws clearly state what they can/cannot punish and if it's not directly related to the interactions with student athletes, it's not under their purview. Now the NCAA could try to make a go of it, but to date nothing like that has ever been done. It would take a very broad interpretation of the NCAA's regulatory authority.

And yes, that logic does apply to most NCAA sanctions - which I think are generally wrong-headed. WTF did stripping USC's wins with Reggie Bush accomplish? And the SMU thing doesn't quite apply either because that truly was a full-system, open disregard of repeated smaller sanctions by the NCAA. It wasn't as though 4 guys at the top made payments and SMU got shut down. Dozens of people within the system did, they were scolded by the NCAA publicly and ignored. SMU's entire system, right up to the board of curators clearly didn't give a shit, so they got the death penalty.

That wasn't the case here - this was 4 guys who operated in secret. And when it came to light Penn State was fully cooperative. They gave information the Freeh that he probably couldn't have gotten to even with a federal subpoena. "Penn State: Collective Institution" made this entire thing possible through being completely transparent with investigators. The University could absolutely have lawyered up, fought its ass off and kept the vilest of details dark.

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with what Penn State as an entity did here. .

In your view what is Penn State the entity?

I don't think people are asking to shut down the physics department.

[whoman69]

I think the death penalty is a knee jerk reaction. Penn State will have plenty of penalties even if the NCAA doesn't give out any. Their reputation is ruined, rightfully so. They will have millions to pay in lawsuits and will probably lose their ability to be insured. I would be more comfortable with the death penalty for the Catholic church as their covering for pedophiles was more pervasive and over a longer period of times.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by -King-

So should USC have been punished for Reggie Bush's and OJ Mayo's violations? Bush was in his 6th year in the NFL when the punishment was handed down. OJ Mayo was in his 3rd in the NBA.

What about Ohio State being punished for Pryor and Tressels violations when both had left?

Huh? Those are football violations.

[Mr. Laz]

Originally Posted by whoman69

I think the death penalty is a knee jerk reaction. Penn State will have plenty of penalties even if the NCAA doesn't give out any. Their reputation is ruined, rightfully so. They will have millions to pay in lawsuits and will probably lose their ability to be insured. I would be more comfortable with the death penalty for the Catholic church as their covering for pedophiles was more pervasive and over a longer period of times.

receiving penalties from elsewhere is irrelevant, the NCAA needs to penalize them

if nothing else, to set a basic standard for moral decency


sadly, i not sure the NCAA has any moral decency left from which to judge.

[Sorter]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla

I guess Joe already did his part

[-King-]

Originally Posted by vailpass

Huh? Those are football violations.

Not entirely.

The NCAA Division I Infractions Appeals Committee has upheld the findings of NCAA violations and associated penalties for the University of Southern California. The case primarily involved agent and amateurism violations for former football student-athlete Reggie Bush and former men’s basketball student-athlete O.J. Mayo.

The findings in this case include a lack of institutional control, impermissible inducements, extra benefits and exceeding coaching staff limits.

Seems like what Penn State did showed a lack of institutional control, don't you agree?

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by -King-

Not entirely.



Seems like what Penn State did showed a lack of institutional control, don't you agree?

Not at all. This is not the type of institutional control that is within the NCAA purview. There are courts of law that hold jurisdiction here, and that is where justice will be served.