Life Ocala Florida fines business owner for flying "Dont Tread on Me" flag - Page 3

Deberg_1990 · 09:52 AM

A Florida small business owner said Monday the city of Ocala has threatened to fine him if he does not immediately take down a Gadsden flag currently displayed outside his store.

Gear Barrel owner Keith Greenberg told TheBlaze that the city said he was permitted to fly the American flag outside his store, but prohibited from displaying anything else outside his business which specializes in selling knives.

“This is a shock,” he said. “Honestly, I feel like this is Russia. I’ve been around the world … this is what you expect in really closed countries where there is no freedom of expression. Not here — so it’s shocking.”

“This is a shock. Honestly, I feel like this is Russia.”
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The flying of the flag appears to be prohibited under the city code of ordinance, section 110-131.

Greenberg told TheBlaze he faces being fined up to $250-$500 per day if he does not comply. He said the potential fines would be devastating to his young small business, which he opened in May.

“The city of Ocala is demanding I take this down,” he told TheBlaze.

Greenberg posted a video to YouTube earlier this month trying to raise awareness of the move being made by the city.

“We find ourselves in a sad place where local municipalities are stepping all over people’s freedom with the signing of a pen,” he said.

Greenberg told TheBlaze he was even more perplexed by the city’s demands because he has spotted other flags being flown at nearby establishments.

Photographs forwarded to TheBlaze show an Ocala car dealership flying the Mexican flag and an Irish bar displaying the Irish flag. It was not clear whether or not the city had also issued similar notices to the other businesses.

The city’s code enforcement office could not immediately be reached Monday night for comment by TheBlaze.

The small business owner said his next move will be to address the city council at their next meeting.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...his-is-russia/

**kysirsoze** · 09-09-2014, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

Quite frankly, despite the fact that the Gadsden flag is an especially political flag that screams free speech, I suspect that his motives for flying it are somewhat advertising related rather than purely political. Of course, only he would really know whether my suspicion is true.

Even if not, I am almost certain his reasons for trying to incite an online campaign are advertising related. That's probably a big reason I don't really care that much.

BucEyedPea · 09-09-2014, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

Quite frankly, despite the fact that the Gadsden flag is an especially political flag that screams free speech, I suspect that his motives for flying it are somewhat advertising related rather than purely political. Of course, only he would really know whether my suspicion is true.

Advertising free speech is allowed too. But gun buyers are protective of this right under the 2nd Amendment so it gets tied up with politics. Let's not forget our Framers were also discussing political speech when they wanted to protect free speech.

It's not like this is an obscenity charge against morals which supposed to be a local matter. My suspicion is that someone in Ocala may not like it because of the political message because they don't agree with it.

BucEyedPea · 09-09-2014, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

Even if not, I am almost certain his reasons for trying to incite an online campaign are advertising related. That's probably a big reason I don't really care that much.

If that was his motive, then it's pretty brilliant. He's getting press on it. That outta stir up the gun crowd!

**kysirsoze** · 09-09-2014, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

If that was his motive, then it's pretty brilliant. He's getting press on it. That outta stir up the gun crowd!

Meh. Unless nearly all of his 17,000 views are loca tea party members, I doubt it's gonna be worth the fines.

ClevelandBronco · 09-09-2014, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

Advertising free speech is allowed too. But gun buyers are protective of this right under the 2nd Amendment so it gets tied up with politics. Let's not forget our Framers were also discussing political speech when they wanted to protect free speech.

It's not like this is an obscenity charge against morals which supposed to be a local matter. My suspicion is that someone in Ocala may not like it because of the political message because they don't agree with it.

Yes, obviously, advertising is speech and all speech (at least in theory) should be protected within reason. Reason not being a standard unit of measure, regulation will exist to regulate it.

I think you're correct when you guess that someone bristled and now Mr. Greenberg finds himself afoul of an attempt at reasonable regulation.

We should be grateful to the founders that all he has to do for now is take down his flag and petition for a redress of this grievance.

BucEyedPea · 09-09-2014, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

Yes, obviously, advertising is speech and all speech (at least in theory) should be protected within reason. Reason not being a standard unit of measure, regulation will exist to regulate it.

It's more like exceptions to the rule or are a case of conflicting rights—like protecting life. Can't put people at risk if someone yells "fire" in a crowded room. It's also a lie. Libel and slander damage others. So I don't get where this idea of regulating speech comes from when it's not a whole lot.

Quote:

I think you're correct when you guess that someone bristled and now Mr. Greenberg finds himself afoul of an attempt at reasonable regulation.

Got it! But I don't think it's any thing close to "reasonable" regulation especially in a time when incorporation of the BoRs has been the continuing trend. I could see it if it was flown too high or blocked something else important but not being told he has to fly an American flag. I'm rusty on the origins of this flag, but iirc it surfaced during the American Revolution. The pieces of snake rep the colonies I believe.

Quote:

We should be grateful to the founders that all he has to do for now is take down his flag and petition for a redress of this grievance.

I doubt a bunch of men who committed treason toward the crown, their govt at the time would advocate for such an act. Afterall these are men who threw tea in a harbor and pamphleteered against the crown in violation of local laws.

Where's your feisty spirit tonight CB?

cosmo20002 · 09-09-2014, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

It's hard to say without knowing the language of the ordinance. If it is as he says, and only official American flags are allowed, then that's allowing a particular form of political expression and not another.

Again, I think he should just protest to the city and get it handled that way. Still, I think I understand the source of the outrage, if not the degree.

Here it is. https://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10003

US flags are allowed.

As are "Governmental or religious flags or insignia and holiday decorations incidental to the business and customarily associated with any national, religious or local holiday."
This might cover the Mexican and Irish flags as this doesn't specify "US governmental."

But it also seems that pretty much any other flag is OK as long as it is not more than 200 square inches.

Based on the pic in the OP, this looks like a size issue.
Frankly, it doesn't seem that obtrusive to me and probably the code enforcement guy was bored that day, but I agree with the general rules in principle.

BucEyedPea · 09-09-2014, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

Meh. Unless nearly all of his 17,000 views are loca tea party members, I doubt it's gonna be worth the fines.

Unless he rallies a bunch of him to his cause where they all come out for him.

ClevelandBronco · 09-09-2014, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

It's more like exceptions to the rule are a case of conflicting rights—like protecting life. Can't put people at risk if someone yells "fire" in a crowded room. It's also a lie. Libel and slander damage others. So I don't get where this idea of regulating speech come from when it's not a whole lot.

Got it! But I don't think it's any thing close to "reasonable" regulation especially in a time when incorporation of the BoRs has been the continuing trend. I could see it if it was flown too high or blocked something else important but not being told he has to fly an American flag. I'm rusty on the origins of this flag, but iirc it surfaced during the American Revolution. The pieces of snake rep the colonies I believe.

I doubt a bunch of men who committed treason toward the crown, their govt at the time would advocate for such an act. Afterall these are men who threw tea in a harbor and pamphleteered against the crown in violation of local laws.

Where's your feisty spirit tonight CB?

When the British crown refused to act on repeated petitions, Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter and got a few friends to cosign it. There is a time for playing masquerade and dumping tea and a time for taking up the pen.

cosmo20002 · 09-09-2014, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

A Florida small business owner said Monday the city of Ocala has threatened to fine him if he does not immediately take down a Gadsden flag currently displayed outside his store.

Gear Barrel owner Keith Greenberg told TheBlaze that the city said he was permitted to fly the American flag outside his store, but prohibited from displaying anything else outside his business which specializes in selling knives.

“This is a shock,” he said. “Honestly, I feel like this is Russia. I’ve been around the world … this is what you expect in really closed countries where there is no freedom of expression. Not here — so it’s shocking.”

Just wanted to mention that his freedom of expression does allow his knife store to advertise "Killer Prices" on the window. So, that's something.

BucEyedPea · 09-09-2014, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

When the British crown refused to act on repeated petitions, Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter and got a few friends to cosign it. There is a time for playing masquerade and dumping tea and a time for taking up the pen.

Yes I know. I agree he should take it down first. I just don't think it's a "reasonable" ordinance. So after he takes it down, it should be fought.

Silock · 09-09-2014, 11:12 PM

**kysirsoze** · 09-09-2014, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20002

Here it is. https://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10003

But it also seems that pretty much any other flag is OK as long as it is not more than 200 square inches.

Ha. If that's it I will respectfully remove myself from this debate. Stunning he didn't mention this in his video.

mr. tegu · 09-09-2014, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

Ha. If that's it I will respectfully remove myself from this debate. Stunning he didn't mention this in his video.

If that is the case you have to wonder if he was aware of that all along and knew he could use it to be "oppressed" and drum up business.

Eleazar · 09-10-2014, 05:14 AM

"Okala", aka Ocala, is funny. They should put a bubble over that place.

09-09-2014, 08:16 PM
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $264454	Ocala Florida fines business owner for flying "Dont Tread on Me" flag A Florida small business owner said Monday the city of Ocala has threatened to fine him if he does not immediately take down a Gadsden flag currently displayed outside his store. Gear Barrel owner Keith Greenberg told TheBlaze that the city said he was permitted to fly the American flag outside his store, but prohibited from displaying anything else outside his business which specializes in selling knives. “This is a shock,” he said. “Honestly, I feel like this is Russia. I’ve been around the world … this is what you expect in really closed countries where there is no freedom of expression. Not here — so it’s shocking.” “This is a shock. Honestly, I feel like this is Russia.” Share: The flying of the flag appears to be prohibited under the city code of ordinance, section 110-131. Greenberg told TheBlaze he faces being fined up to $250-$500 per day if he does not comply. He said the potential fines would be devastating to his young small business, which he opened in May. “The city of Ocala is demanding I take this down,” he told TheBlaze. Greenberg posted a video to YouTube earlier this month trying to raise awareness of the move being made by the city. “We find ourselves in a sad place where local municipalities are stepping all over people’s freedom with the signing of a pen,” he said. Greenberg told TheBlaze he was even more perplexed by the city’s demands because he has spotted other flags being flown at nearby establishments. Photographs forwarded to TheBlaze show an Ocala car dealership flying the Mexican flag and an Irish bar displaying the Irish flag. It was not clear whether or not the city had also issued similar notices to the other businesses. The city’s code enforcement office could not immediately be reached Monday night for comment by TheBlaze. The small business owner said his next move will be to address the city council at their next meeting. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...his-is-russia/ Last edited by Gonzo; 09-10-2014 at 09:52 AM..
Posts: 68,475

09-09-2014, 11:12 PM	#42
Silock MVP Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Overland Park Casino cash: $10020882
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09-10-2014, 05:14 AM	#45
Eleazar Beyond the Rapids Join Date: May 2003 Location: Langley, VA Casino cash: $-370000	"Okala", aka Ocala, is funny. They should put a bubble over that place.
Posts: 80,659