Casey Martin fiasco

[Baby Lee]

A lot of people have posed hypotheticals with varying degrees of credulity. I hope this is one that is reasonable.

What if there were a golfer with the exact same skills as Casey Martin, and he could walk the course and perform without problems. Only, this golfer suffers from panic attacks. The notion that he is the center of attention in a large crowd induces asthma-like symptoms and triggers his autonomic nervous system. Should the US District courts order the PGA to allow him to compete on a deserted course, with his scores recorded by a single, unobtrusive, observer?

Remember, the Court in Martin found as a matter of FACT, notwithstanding the PGA's representations to the contrary, that walking is not an intrinsic aspect of the game. This basically means my question is; should the Court have liberty to find as a matter of FACT that observation by a crowd is not an intrinsic aspect either?

[Edited by JC-Johnny on 01-18-2001 at 04:37 PM]

[Mile High Mania]

I don't think he receives any advantage by riding the cart, if you listen to him or at least to those that watch him getting in and out of the cart, he still has trouble with the leg. So, I don't think the other golfers should be worried about him being more rested.

The damn guy can play golf and he plays it well... he can do everything except walk long distances.

Here's a solution... if the other golfers feel that the cart gives him advantage, along with damaging the integrity of the game, and they really want him to play without the cart - maybe before each of them tees off at the first hole they should take a direct hit in the knee with a 9 iron from their caddies!

That way, ALL of them will be at the same disadvantage!
Yeah, that's the ticket...

[Mile High Mania]

Ok, your going a bit far with the "panic attack" theory. Obviously, that couldn't happen unless the guy has done nothing but play and practice on deserted courses for his entire life.

There's no way that anyone could reach the level of the PGA without having already spent a considerable amount of time playing the game on crowded courses.

So, that point is moot. Nice try, but use your noodle.

[Edited by Mile High Mania on 01-18-2001 at 04:40 PM]

[Baby Lee]

FYI noodlehead. There are a number of athletes whose careers were cut short by panic attacks. Players on team sports, and I seem to recall some in track and field who could still perform the athletic feats required of them, but could not face the throng.

And I don't know about you, but I have never had more than 3-4 people [ie., my group] observe me playing. Not exactly roving crowds of observers at the country club, city park, or driving range.

And also, my question centered on the power the Court finding as a matter of fact what is and isn't intrinsic to an organized sport.

[KCWolfman]

Dan - You stated "Golf is a sport and reasonable accomodations should be made to allow Casey Martin to play"

Well, Basketball is a sport and special accomodations should be made for me to play. It is not my fault that I am vertically challenged. Perhaps a hoop could be set at 6 foot for me, and the standard height for the rest of the NBA?

[KCWolfman]

Brad - And maybe we can ask those guys that have the unfair advantage of height against me to crawl on their knees when they play....

[Mile High Mania]

Russ, I'm kinda shocked at your response.

Martin isn't asking to change the rules of the game of golf. He's not asking to change the equipment, balls, contours of the course...

Is "walking" from hole to hole really a part of the game and will allowing him to ride a cart really bastardize the integrity of the game? No...

It's not like the guy can't hit his driver and he's asking the PGA to allow him to hit from the women's tees. Geez.

[Raiderhater]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pitt Gorilla [/i]
[B]Hey Raderhader, maybe the PGA shouldn't let white people play golf. How about lefties? How about short people? Letting them make up their own rules, plausible or not, just doesn't jive. That's what laws like the ADA were written for. [/B][/QUOTE]

Pitt,
I suppose while we are at it women should be allowed to join a private men's club. Or we should even allow them in the NFL. Were does it stop?
Government only has the right to involve themselves in a private organization's affairs if they are doing something illegal. If you give government an inch they will take a mile. And besides as I stated, the SC will probaly rule in favor for the PGA as they did for the Boy Scouts. If they don't then it will be said that they sided with the Boy Scouts because they are homophobes.

[TexN]

Can't you crazy people see that Casey Martin almost certainly gets as tired as any nonhandicapped walking player.

The NFL analogies don't hold water because walking in a golf tournament doesn't directly affect your ability to score. Scoring in golf, unlike football, does not depend on your ability to run quickly.

Casey Martin can play golf well enough to compete on the PGA tour. And if you think he has an unfair advantage because he is less tired than the rest of the field...you need to share the stuff.

Let him play. What's the BFD.

TexN

[TexN]

Women on the other hand.

Well, they would just get in the way.

TexN

[Raiderhater]

TexN,
that is a bit of a double standard isn't? Not to mention sexist. And the NFL analogy does work because it is a private orgiznation. As as for What's the BFD, it is the government writing the rules for a private organization. I have nothing personal against Martin, and if the PGA wanted to bend their rules for him that would be fine with me. But the government doing it for them is not.

[Edited by raiderhader on 01-18-2001 at 09:55 PM]

[Pitt Gorilla]

Raderhader, check out the ADA. It is LEGALLY binding. I wouldn't mind women in a men's club. Actually, I find the thought very inviting. If a woman ran a 4.1 40, was 6 foot 5, and could flat out catch, you'd allow her on the Chiefs' roster as well. I mean, she doesn't even have to be that good; She just has to be good enough to occupy one of the roster spots on an NFL team. Dude, if you don't like the ladies, that's YOUR buisness. I just don't think they should be discriminated against in any way.

[Mark M]

A couple of things here:

Wolf--
Your height has [i]nothing[/i] to do with being able to play in the NBA. Mugsy Bogues (sp?) was 5'3". You must have the skills, as he did, to play. So please stop trying to use that analogy.

raiderhader--
Tell me what rule in the NFL says that women can't play? I would've taken Mia Hamm over Elliott any day of the week.

People, I agree that the SC is trying to do something questionable. But when there is a LAW that says something is illegal, whether or not it is a private organization, it is still illegal. The KKK is a private organization, but if they go lynch someone are they not guilty of murder even though, according to their rules, its okay?

MM
~~Wondering how the KKK analogy will be taken.
[img]http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net5/target1.gif[/img]


[Edited by Mark M on 01-19-2001 at 09:54 AM]

[DanT]

Hey Mile High Mania,

The Wednesday Kansas City Star had a story about Jim Eisenreich's latest award:

[url]http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/sports.pat,sports/37750f7d.116,.html[/url]

He was a major league whose career was interrupted for over 3 years due to the onset of Tourette's Syndrome, a neurological disorder which severely limited his ability to perform in front of crowd. Many neurological and neurobiological disorders have adult onset, so JC~Johnny's hypothetical situation really isn't all that fantastic or unrealistic.

[Edited by DanT on 01-19-2001 at 11:51 AM]

[Mile High Mania]

There's still a disconnect somewhere with all of these hypothetical scenarios... comparing Martin's situation to those of Russ being too short for the NBA, Clint not having a strong enough leg to be an NFL kicker and JC having panic attacks are not the same at all.

Panic attacks or Tourette's Syndrome definitely affect a players ability to perform the normal motions of his game, ie - inability to pitch or perform like an athlete under any normal circumstances. However, this is not the same as Martin's inability to walk an 18 hole course. Whether he walks or rides, he's still swinging the clubs and hitting the balls in the same manner and under the same rules as every other golfer in the universe.

Martin's disability does not affect his drives, chip shots, putts or any of that. If his disability affected his ability to swing a golf club normally like anyone else and he was asking for a change so that he could compete, then I would understand.