The "Official" Cardinals Discussion Thread.

[BigRedChief]

Figured that if we had one thread to discuss Cardinals "stuff" it would be easier to find. What do you think? Good idea?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

I have to agree. We have blown a lot of late games since Wainright went out so I don't think missing him as a starter is the weakness. The starters are doing fine without AW, and with Carp we basically replace him.

So getting AW in the closer role and getting Carp in the rotation we are about 10 games better IMO.

If we had a closer I would agree but with Carp coming back we have a bigger need for a closer.

What would you rather have a 5th pitcher or a lights out closer? The only other option I would explore is Looper as the closer and AW taking his place in the rotation.

One way or another, one of the starters becomes the closer and Looper and Wainright are the only experienced options.

This is lunacy. If closers are that important why aren't Sheets or Sabathia closing for Milwaukee? Their bullpen is just as bad.

Ultimately the only thing that matters are runs and outs and I would rather have 7 innings of Adam Wainwright every five days who is going to give up 2, than 5 innings of Joel Pineiro giving up 4.

You give up fewer runs (saving your pen), and you have to pitch them less.

Again, it is not a coincidence that the teams with the lowest bullpen era's average the most IP's from their starters. Pitchers go to the bullpen because they aren't good enough to start. It doesn't matter if it is Gagne, Rivera, K-Rod, or Steve Nebraska.

Starters are always worth more than relievers, and the guy is our best starter.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

This is lunacy. If closers are that important why aren't Sheets or Sabathia closing for Milwaukee? Their bullpen is just as bad.

Ultimately the only thing that matters are runs and outs and I would rather have 7 innings of Adam Wainwright every five days who is going to give up 2, than 5 innings of Joel Pineiro giving up 4.

You give up fewer runs (saving your pen), and you have to pitch them less.

Again, it is not a coincidence that the teams with the lowest bullpen era's average the most IP's from their starters. Pitchers go to the bullpen because they aren't good enough to start. It doesn't matter if it is Gagne, Rivera, K-Rod, or Steve Nebraska.

Starters are always worth more than relievers, and the guy is our best starter.

by the way, do you think joakim soria should start for the royals? just curious.

[Frazod]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. We enjoyed our greatest success in decades with Wainwright in the pen. Hard to argue with that.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

This is lunacy. If closers are that important why aren't Sheets or Sabathia closing for Milwaukee? Their bullpen is just as bad.

Ultimately the only thing that matters are runs and outs and I would rather have 7 innings of Adam Wainwright every five days who is going to give up 2, than 5 innings of Joel Pineiro giving up 4.

You give up fewer runs (saving your pen), and you have to pitch them less.

Again, it is not a coincidence that the teams with the lowest bullpen era's average the most IP's from their starters. Pitchers go to the bullpen because they aren't good enough to start. It doesn't matter if it is Gagne, Rivera, K-Rod, or Steve Nebraska.

Starters are always worth more than relievers, and the guy is our best starter.

Look, I usually agree but tonight is a common occurance. We had a 4 run lead going into the 9th and blew it.

A good closer will solidify the rest of the pen. Franklin goes back to the 8th, Springer is good before that.

I understand you think AW should be a starter. Who do you want to close? Answer that with a good proposition and maybe I could understand.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

So Frankie Rodriguez has been about the best closer in baseball this year. If you believe in Sabermetrics and goofy stats, he's added 4.4 wins to his team, and that is with 45 saves.

Now think about how many wins you'd get from 32 stars of Adam Wainwright as opposed to Joel Pineiro (replacement player).

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Look, I usually agree but tonight is a common occurance. We had a 4 run lead going into the 9th and blew it.

A good closer will solidify the rest of the pen. Franklin goes back to the 8th, Springer is good before that.

I understand you think AW should be a starter. Who do you want to close? Answer that with a good proposition and maybe I could understand.

Wellemeyer. His shoulder is fatigued, he's worked as a reliever before, he has the best fastball in the rotation and 60% of his pitches are strikes.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

So Frankie Rodriguez has been about the best closer in baseball this year. If you believe in Sabermetrics and goofy stats, he's added 4.4 wins to his team, and that is with 45 saves.

Now think about how many wins you'd get from 32 stars of Adam Wainwright as opposed to Joel Pineiro (replacement player).

and how many wins do you get with adam wainwright instead of isringhausen/franklin/etc.

the bullpen has been awful, but they have blown plenty of leads in the ninth too.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by frazod

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. We enjoyed our greatest success in decades with Wainwright in the pen. Hard to argue with that.

Yeah, we also had Molina and So Taguchi hitting game winning homers and Anthony Reyes and Jeff Weaver throwing absolute gems in the WS for us. It doesn't mean that's the best solution, it means that we were somewhat fortunate.

Not to mention that Flores, Tyler Johnson, and Josh Kinney were lights fucking out in that post season.

Our Pen pitched 9 total innings in five games of the WS and gave up one run (Looper). It wasn't just Wainwright.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by thurman merman

and how many wins do you get with adam wainwright instead of isringhausen/franklin/etc.

the bullpen has been awful, but they have blown plenty of leads in the ninth too.

Hell, Frankie has only given you two more wins than Franklin

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/st...php?cid=204021

[Frazod]

If a healthy Wainwright had been our closer all season, we'd have the best record in baseball right now and at least a seven game lead over Chicago.

[Marcellus]

I would take anything over what is going on now. And keep in mind we won the WS with AW as closer and Weever and Reyes as starters.

Granted we had a better bullpen in front but AW steped in once before and it WORKED.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Originally Posted by frazod

If a healthy Wainwright had been our closer all season, we'd have the best record in baseball right now and at least a seven game lead over Chicago.

agreed.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Wellemeyer. His shoulder is fatigued, he's worked as a reliever before, he has the best fastball in the rotation and 60% of his pitches are strikes.

that does not solve the problem of replacing pineiro in the rotation either.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by thurman merman

by the way, do you think joakim soria should start for the royals? just curious.

If Soria can give you 100 pitches every 5 days, and he's facing 28 hitters, that's more than what he would give you in two weeks in the pen.

I thought the point of baseball was to have your best players play the most



Again, would you bench Pujols for the contingency that he may be needed to pinch hit in the late innings, or do you roll him out there every day even if his spot may not come up in the 9th??

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Hell, Frankie has only given you two more wins than Franklin

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/st...php?cid=204021

Different games, different circumstances. The Cards have played the most one run games in baseball. If a closer isn't more important in that situation then when are they? If we are in one run games, the starting pitching is doing the job.

In games the 8th inning and later the Cards are 14th in the NL in runs given up.

Case closed.