"Official" 2011 St. Louis Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

This is so unreal. We were dead. No hope. A season over. Somehow, someway we find some team chemistry and squeak into the playoffs on the last day of the season.

Only to find us facing one of the best pitching staffs assembled in years with home field advantage. We somehow, someway find a way to beat the best pitcher in baseball on the road in an elimination game.

We have to go on the road and beat the team with the best home record in baseball. A team who mortgaged their future to make this run .We somehow, someway find a way to beat them on the road and make our 18th World series trip.

We take game 1, we give away game 2 and home field advantage. Albert goes off for probably the best performance in World Series history and we take game 3 easily. Games 4 & 5 our bats fall asleep, Phone gate happens and its not looking too good.

Game 6, one of the best baseball games of all time and it takes place in a season ending go home game. Cardinals are down 2 runs in their final chance on the season, twice. They are down to their final strike of the season, twice. They give up a 2 run homer in extra innings. In the bottom of the inning their final 3 batters are a combined 3-26 in the Playoffs and a pitcher because the bench is empty. Somehow, someway they get some runners on and the comeback player of the year drives in the tying run. Mr. Freese hits the walk off home run. We will see you tommorrow night.

Game 7, With our bulldog on the mound pitching on 3 days rest he is able to give us 6 good innings and get us to within 9 outs of our 11 World series title. Texas meltsdown, probably left over from last nights game and its over.

The underdog, come back team who had no business even being in the playoffs wins a World championship. They make movies about events like this in life. Events that you remember even if your not a fan of the sport or team for the rest of your life.

When it is your team.......Priceless


.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I said it earlier in this thread and I stand by it: Matt Holliday is the Oklahoman A-Rod.

I don't remember the dude ever having a single big hit for the Cardinals in a crucial situation.

[SuckForLuck]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I said it earlier in this thread and I stand by it: Matt Holliday is the Oklahoman A-Rod.

I don't remember the dude ever having a single big hit for the Cardinals in a crucial situation.

But the entire point of statistics is that it reveals what your memory may not remember or remember incorrectly. I'm not sure how we reach this conclusion that Matt Holliday's last two years were nightmarish. He put up 6.7 and 5.0 WAR seasons, respectively. As for the clutch claim, if you look at my previous posts, I compiled the clutch statistic on Fangraphs for the last three years with surprising results. Holliday ranks 75th among all major leaguers. Ahead of guys like Jeter.

[SuckForLuck]

I don't dispute Crawford's defensive superiority. But WAR accounts for all facets of a player's game, including defense. So even including Crawford's defense, a Holliday/Crawford WAR comparison is (if we are being as charitable as possible to Crawford) a wash.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by SuckForLuck

But the entire point of statistics is that it reveals what your memory may not remember or remember incorrectly. I'm not sure how we reach this conclusion that Matt Holliday's last two years were nightmarish. He put up 6.7 and 5.0 WAR seasons, respectively. As for the clutch claim, if you look at my previous posts, I compiled the clutch statistic on Fangraphs for the last three years with surprising results. Holliday ranks 75th among all major leaguers. Ahead of guys like Jeter.

Matt Holliday isn't paid to be 75th in the clutch, and he's damn sure not paid to be the piece of **** he was in the playoffs in 2009 and 2011.

Matt Holliday is paid to be the best LF in baseball, not a guy whose absence saves us multiple runs per game.

[SuckForLuck]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Matt Holliday isn't paid to be 75th in the clutch, and he's damn sure not paid to be the piece of **** he was in the playoffs in 2009 and 2011.

Matt Holliday is paid to be the best LF in baseball, not a guy whose absence saves us multiple runs per game.

According to Fangraphs, Ryan Howard has been the most clutch player in the game the last three years. (Remember, fangraphs' clutch statistic is measured individually, comparing a player in high leverage situations against himself in a context neutral environment.) Albert Pujols has been the 43rd most clutch player over the last three years. Anyone of sound mind would want Pujols over Howard in a high leverage situation. Give me the better player over the "clutch" player as a general principle. I'll take an unclutch Pujols over a clutch Howard, given what I know about their production levels, and the lack of evidence supporting the idea of "clutch" players. Thus, I'd take Holliday in a high leverage situation over a lot of other players, given his level of production.

(Ironically as a sidenote, and I found this funny considering our discussion, A-Rod is ranked 18th.)

[WV]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Matt Holliday isn't paid to be 75th in the clutch, and he's damn sure not paid to be the piece of **** he was in the playoffs in 2009 and 2011.

Matt Holliday is paid to be the best LF in baseball, not a guy whose absence saves us multiple runs per game.

I'm not so sure about getting rid of him, but this is a great assessment.

[KC_Connection]

I'd take Holliday on the Jays, but I'd still hate his guts.

[SuckForLuck]

Once again, Barry Bonds' career clutch rating was -9.33. Would we really criticize Bonds as not living up to his contract because he wasn't at the top of the league in Fangraphs' clutch statistic?

No, because we know what that statistic does and does not show. It only relates to the ability of a player to raise his usual level of production in the clutch. Because a player like Bonds' level of production was so high, we'd still want him up to bat in a high leverage situation--especially considering the evidence for clutch players is so scant.

[SuckForLuck]

And just to further dispute the claim that Matt Holliday's production doesn't match his contract:


Fangraphs shows that for the 2.5 years Holliday has been a Cardinal he has turned in seasons of 5.6 WAR in 2009 (25.3 million worth of production), 6.7 WAR in 2010 (26.7 million worth of production), and 5.0 WAR (22.7 million worth of production) in 2011.

[Hootie]

if the Cards could get Crawford for Holliday they'd have to do it in a second...and I bet they could even get the Sox to pay a few million of that salary...

and one bad year doesn't make it "the worst contract ever"...Crawford bounces back next year...can't wait to draft him in fantasy.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Matt Holliday isn't paid to be 75th in the clutch, and he's damn sure not paid to be the piece of **** he was in the playoffs in 2009 and 2011.

Matt Holliday is paid to be the best LF in baseball, not a guy whose absence saves us multiple runs per game.

THIS. Good God, the highest paid player on your team shouldn't have to be moved down in the batting order during the playoffs to inspire him to actually get a hit occasionally. He should also be able to catch routine fly balls - that would be a plus.

This should be a happy time for us, and I have no intention in getting into a protracted debate over Matt ****ing Holliday with a bunch of ballwashing homer stats geeks. I know we're stuck with him, so it's a moot point anyway. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, and I won't.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi

Hootie is right, you guys are ridiculous.

Trade Holliday? Dump Garcia?

Name one team that wouldn't love to have these guys. Absolutely ridiculous.

Just to make this clear, because apparently I didn't the first time around, I have no desire to trade Holliday.

I'm just relaying what a few sports talk hosts were suggesting on Saturday afternoon.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Matt Holliday isn't paid to be 75th in the clutch, and he's damn sure not paid to be the piece of **** he was in the playoffs in 2009 and 2011.

Matt Holliday is paid to be the best LF in baseball, not a guy whose absence saves us multiple runs per game.

Originally Posted by WVChiefFan

I'm not so sure about getting rid of him, but this is a great assessment.

What WV said.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Press conference right now, looks like they are about to announce an extension for TLR.

[SuckForLuck]

Originally Posted by frazod

THIS. Good God, the highest paid player on your team shouldn't have to be moved down in the batting order during the playoffs to inspire him to actually get a hit occasionally. He should also be able to catch routine fly balls - that would be a plus.

This should be a happy time for us, and I have no intention in getting into a protracted debate over Matt ****ing Holliday with a bunch of ballwashing homer stats geeks. I know we're stuck with him, so it's a moot point anyway. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, and I won't.

Statistics can really be stubborn. Who needs statistical data and evidence when you can rely on personal memory and anecdotal evidence to draw your conclusions however you want to, right?