Chiefs Gunther's finger pointing has already begun... - Page 6

Rooster · 01-21-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

That's a fine line. Everyone in the NFL has talent. That's why "on any given sunday" holds true, unless you're the Detroit Lions. The key is to put your talent in a position to be successful, or bring in talent that will help you be successful. Gunther was unable to do either. He had five years of drafts where he was unable to develop anyone of note. In fact, one prime example is Kawika Mitchell, who blossomed once he got away from Gunther. I wouldn't be surprised to see DJ become an all pro now that Gunther is gone. In terms of bringing in talent, it was famously proclaimed by Gunther himself that he personally went to Carl Peterson and gave him a list of players to go get him and Carl delivered on what he wanted. He promised that Kendrell Bell and Sammy Knight and co would turn this defense around, provide the leadership, etc. We still sucked. So to me, across the board, under two totally different head coaches, with two different assistant coaching staffs under him, he failed, and failed spectacularly...

Word

Rooster · 01-21-2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

The last good player we had one defense since JA was DT, and we traded JA away, great move there.

JA didn't want to be in KC. Why is that so hard for some to understand? He didn't like it here. Period. He played his card and the Chiefs then played theirs. Get over it.

CoMoChief · 01-21-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooster

JA didn't want to be in KC. Why is that so hard for some to understand? He didn't like it here. Period. He played his card and the Chiefs then played theirs. Get over it.

JA loved KC (probably why he wanted to open a bar here) wanted to be in KC and get paid as well, Carl made a promise to him, Jared Allen did what was asked of him, and then Carl ****ed him over. Then Jared wanted out.

Why people dont understand this is beyond me

EyePod · 01-21-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

JA loved KC (probably why he wanted to open a bar here) wanted to be in KC and get paid as well, Carl made a promise to him, Jared Allen did what was asked of him, and then Carl ****ed him over. Then Jared wanted out.

Why people dont understand this is beyond me

I thought he made the promise before the last DUI, or is that just me brain farting...

RINGLEADER · 01-21-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

JA loved KC (probably why he wanted to open a bar here) wanted to be in KC and get paid as well, Carl made a promise to him, Jared Allen did what was asked of him, and then Carl ****ed him over. Then Jared wanted out.

Why people dont understand this is beyond me

Jared did get suspended and had a bout with the law if I'm not mistaken. But I generally agree with your point.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-21-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooster

JA didn't want to be in KC. Why is that so hard for some to understand? He didn't like it here. Period. He played his card and the Chiefs then played theirs. Get over it.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Jared Allen left because of money and because of an abrasive GM who was making insulting offers and even stooped to the point of calling Allen an "at risk" player in a public press conference to lower Allen's stock.

I don't know why people act like Allen didn't want to be in KC. If anything, he had too much fun in Kansas City (as we all know). He was great to his teammates, great to his fans, and he even opened a restaurant there.

Plain and simple: if Allen got offered a good contract, he would have stayed in Kansas City.

Amnorix · 01-21-2009, 01:23 PM

Viewing this from 1,500 miles away, I'm trying to think of the last time the Chiefs had good talent on defense to work with. Other than Jared Allen, I'm thinking the cupboard has been pretty bare since those Derrick Thomas teams.

I could give a rat's ass about Gunther either way, but I'd think you'd need more than one guy to run an effective defense. In fact, I know you need more than one guy, becuase I've seen how being one or two guys short in key positions undermines the entire defnese, even for a guy like Belichick.

Chiefnj2 · 01-21-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Viewing this from 1,500 miles away, I'm trying to think of the last time the Chiefs had good talent on defense to work with. Other than Jared Allen, I'm thinking the cupboard has been pretty bare since those Derrick Thomas teams.

I could give a rat's ass about Gunther either way, but I'd think you'd need more than one guy to run an effective defense. In fact, I know you need more than one guy, becuase I've seen how being one or two guys short in key positions undermines the entire defnese, even for a guy like Belichick.

Part of the lack of talent was Gunther's fault. Back in year 2 of Gun under Vermeil, Gunther listed the players he wanted and he got them - Bell, Hall, Surtain, etc.

Christofire · 01-21-2009, 01:24 PM

I don't think the Tampa Two is obsolete ... but it does requires getting all of your pressure from the front four. That lets your CBs jump routes and attack the receivers, because they konw they have safeties behind them to make the play. If you don't have a talented front four (like we didn't last year), it's just like any zone and there's plenty of time for the QB to find holes. If Herm stays, we have no choice BUT to draft more defensive linemen. It's the only way the scheme works.

Previously, I've been willing to give Herm a fourth year, but his coaching hires are much more damning to me than his in-game coaching. He kept an aggressive d-coordinator whose heart wasn't in the Tampa Two out of loyalty, instead of bringing in a guy who drinks the Tampa Two Kool-aid and would be excited to run it. He gave Mike Solari a chance because he thought he deserved it, instead of finding a guy he knew could run his offense. The only major coaching hire he's done right is bringing in Gailey to give us some life. It just shows how organizationally screwed up we've been over the past five years, and makes the hire of an outside all the more important.

booger · 01-21-2009, 01:24 PM

Pioli is playing this pretty good though. While going through evaluations he can at least get the coaches side of what they were asking the players to do, in their own words. He can piece that together with what he sees on film while evaluating the players.

While this goes on he realizes they sure don't work well together stabbing each other in the back on the way out. In the end that all points back to the HC. It would tell Clark that he has had him fooled all along, assuming Clark still wants Herm to return which i'm not so sure of.

**HemiEd** · 01-21-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booger

Pioli is playing this pretty good though. While going through evaluations he can at least get the coaches side of what they were asking the players to do, in their own words. He can piece that together with what he sees on film while evaluating the players.

While this goes on he realizes they sure don't work well together stabbing each other in the back on the way out. In the end that all points back to the HC. It would tell Clark that he has had him fooled all along, assuming Clark still wants Herm to return which i'm not so sure of.

Good point, Herm has set an example of back stabbing and throwing others under the bus.
It had to happen, once Herm started deflecting the blame, others were going to do the same. But of course, Gunther has always done it.
Accountability left with DV.

FringeNC · 01-21-2009, 01:49 PM

Gunther Cunningham is a disgrace. He ran HIS defense in 2004 upon his return, and it was a complete disaster. Far worse than Robinson's 2003 unit. The next year, I do think Vermeil took away some of his power, because it was more of a basic defense in 2005, and not quite as bad.

Anytime one of Gunther's defense sucks, it's always someone else's fault.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-21-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FringeNC

Gunther Cunningham is a disgrace. He ran HIS defense in 2004 upon his return, and it was a complete disaster. Far worse than Robinson's 2003 unit. The next year, I do think Vermeil took away some of his power, because it was more of a basic defense in 2005, and not quite as bad.

Anytime one of Gunther's defense sucks, it's always someone else's fault.

So far he has blamed:
1) Being in the booth instead of the sidelines
2) Not having the right players (in 2004)
3) Being restrained by an offensive coach who scored too many points too quick
4) Not having his assistant coaches
5) His crappy LBs coach (nevermind that Gun was much worse than Blackmon)
6) Herm Edwards' zone defense
7) Not having veteran free agent leadership.
Never once have I ever heard Gun say that he failed in any way whatsoever. Does he ever bring up his ridiculous wish list in 2005? No. Does he mention that his LBs got WORSE under his watch in 2008 when he fired Blackmon to directly coach LBs? No. Does he mention that he blitzed plenty of times the last few years and still failed to get pressure? No.

Chan Gailey walked into KC with the worst ranked offense in the NFL. He created a new offense out of thin air to match his players' strengths. While Gailey was not perfect, he at least got solid production out of a crappy situation. Gailey doesn't make excuses. Gailey exposed Gun for the fraud that he is.

lazepoo · 01-21-2009, 01:52 PM

I'm not surprised. That said, I don't think that Gunther's scheme is bad... he's just not a good judge of talent and a poor motivator. If your only move is to drop 4 f bombs per second in order to get a guy moving, not everyone responds well to it. I don't think he's very realistic about the talent of the guys he has, either. A lot of players in his defenses are playing out of position or utilized poorly. Apparently he made an impression on Schwartz, though.

One positive that everyone's overlooked here is that had we hired Schwartz, Gunther probably would have stuck around. He's moved on, and so should we.

wutamess · 01-21-2009, 02:11 PM

Gunther is SUCH a fraud for totally changing his scheme to something he wasn't comfortable with.

GTFOH.

We all know/knew Gun loves crushing the QB for you homers to think otherwise because he's saying what really went down is just plain stupid. [/Gaz]

01-21-2009, 01:23 PM	#7
Amnorix In BB I trust Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, Mass. Casino cash: $10029808	Viewing this from 1,500 miles away, I'm trying to think of the last time the Chiefs had good talent on defense to work with. Other than Jared Allen, I'm thinking the cupboard has been pretty bare since those Derrick Thomas teams. I could give a rat's ass about Gunther either way, but I'd think you'd need more than one guy to run an effective defense. In fact, I know you need more than one guy, becuase I've seen how being one or two guys short in key positions undermines the entire defnese, even for a guy like Belichick. __________________ "I love signature blocks on the Internet. I get to put whatever the hell I want in quotes, pick a pretend author, and bang, it's like he really said it." George Washington
Posts: 43,125

01-21-2009, 01:24 PM	#9
Christofire Aberzombie and Fitch Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Southwest Kansas Casino cash: $10004950	I don't think the Tampa Two is obsolete ... but it does requires getting all of your pressure from the front four. That lets your CBs jump routes and attack the receivers, because they konw they have safeties behind them to make the play. If you don't have a talented front four (like we didn't last year), it's just like any zone and there's plenty of time for the QB to find holes. If Herm stays, we have no choice BUT to draft more defensive linemen. It's the only way the scheme works. Previously, I've been willing to give Herm a fourth year, but his coaching hires are much more damning to me than his in-game coaching. He kept an aggressive d-coordinator whose heart wasn't in the Tampa Two out of loyalty, instead of bringing in a guy who drinks the Tampa Two Kool-aid and would be excited to run it. He gave Mike Solari a chance because he thought he deserved it, instead of finding a guy he knew could run his offense. The only major coaching hire he's done right is bringing in Gailey to give us some life. It just shows how organizationally screwed up we've been over the past five years, and makes the hire of an outside all the more important.
Posts: 582

01-21-2009, 01:24 PM	#10
booger Don't Tug on Superman's Cape Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: clear out in the sticks Casino cash: $-2181450	Pioli is playing this pretty good though. While going through evaluations he can at least get the coaches side of what they were asking the players to do, in their own words. He can piece that together with what he sees on film while evaluating the players. While this goes on he realizes they sure don't work well together stabbing each other in the back on the way out. In the end that all points back to the HC. It would tell Clark that he has had him fooled all along, assuming Clark still wants Herm to return which i'm not so sure of. __________________ 1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” KJV
Posts: 12,897

01-21-2009, 01:49 PM	#12
FringeNC MVP Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NC Casino cash: $-1593986	Gunther Cunningham is a disgrace. He ran HIS defense in 2004 upon his return, and it was a complete disaster. Far worse than Robinson's 2003 unit. The next year, I do think Vermeil took away some of his power, because it was more of a basic defense in 2005, and not quite as bad. Anytime one of Gunther's defense sucks, it's always someone else's fault.
Posts: 10,234

01-21-2009, 01:52 PM	#14
lazepoo Wizard Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Mpls Casino cash: $10005004	I'm not surprised. That said, I don't think that Gunther's scheme is bad... he's just not a good judge of talent and a poor motivator. If your only move is to drop 4 f bombs per second in order to get a guy moving, not everyone responds well to it. I don't think he's very realistic about the talent of the guys he has, either. A lot of players in his defenses are playing out of position or utilized poorly. Apparently he made an impression on Schwartz, though. One positive that everyone's overlooked here is that had we hired Schwartz, Gunther probably would have stuck around. He's moved on, and so should we.
Posts: 477

01-21-2009, 02:11 PM	#15
wutamess MVP Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Lee's Summit Casino cash: $4711637	Gunther is SUCH a fraud for totally changing his scheme to something he wasn't comfortable with. GTFOH. We all know/knew Gun loves crushing the QB for you homers to think otherwise because he's saying what really went down is just plain stupid. [/Gaz]
Posts: 8,290