***OFFICIAL 2012 KC Chiefs Training Camp Thread***

[Kylo Ren]

Discuss everything Chiefs / training camp related here......

Enjoy!










Mark Cassell sucks!

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by The Macho Man

How so? Top 5 Picks are suppose to be Game Changers. The Eric Berry's of the world.

First, the game changers argument is overused and given way too much weight. Left tackles aren't game changers, but they're often drafted high. You're looking to improve your team.

Second, Dorsey was drafted to be a 4-3 d-lineman by the past regime, not a 3-4 d-lineman by the current regime. The Chiefs have only taken Jackson as a 3-4 DE in round one. I thought the Chiefs should, and would, take Raji at the time, and I still think that would have been the better choice, but the over reaction on this board has been absolutely ridiculous.

The top 10 picks that year were:

Stafford
Smith
Jackson
Curry
Sanchez
Smith
Heyward-Bey
Monroe
Raji
Crabtree

When you look at that group and compare, the Jackson pick starts looking pretty good.

[lostcause]

Originally Posted by chiefsfootballfan

No. Their job in this defense is the same as the job of all defensive linemen -- stop the run and rush the passer. Here is the sack totals of the NYG DEFENSIVE LINE under Bill Parcells, Bill Belicheck and Romeo Crennel during each of the first five seasons;

15
27.5
38
24
23
----------
127.5 sacks


And it just kept rolling. Same defense. This DL is garbage.

To be fair you're comparing this squad to arguably the best 3-4 defense ever run in the NFL that had Lawrence Taylor on the same side as Leonard Marshall, the DE that got most of those dline sacks.

Good to shoot for the stars, but probably not fair to call the chiefs DEs "garbage" because they don't measure up to the BBWC. Additionally, the DEs in the Giants 3-4 were undersized drastically by todays standards of a 3-4 DE.

[saphojunkie]

Originally Posted by whoman69

Even the 2005 numbers are better than what we got.

That must be why we drafted Allen Bailey and Dontari Poe.

[xztop12]

we do better when we play teams that pass first, like pats and pack because we dont even screw with the 3-4 we come out in subpackage from the start. teams that pass out of heavysets like the ravens and raiders will continue to give us problems because our 3-4 is atrocious at getting pressure, its essentially just a gassed Hali having to be huge

[CoMoChief]

Originally Posted by Just Not Gettin' It

First, the game changers argument is overused and given way too much weight. Left tackles aren't game changers, but they're often drafted high. You're looking to improve your team.

Second, Dorsey was drafted to be a 4-3 d-lineman by the past regime, not a 3-4 d-lineman by the current regime. The Chiefs have only taken Jackson as a 3-4 DE in round one. I thought the Chiefs should, and would, take Raji at the time, and I still think that would have been the better choice, but the over reaction on this board has been absolutely ridiculous.

The top 10 picks that year were:

Stafford
Smith
Jackson
Curry
Sanchez
Smith
Heyward-Bey
Monroe
Raji
Crabtree

When you look at that group and compare, the Jackson pick starts looking pretty good.

Not really....looks like he's in the same group of "crap" players that didn't live up to their draft potential.

[Ace Gunner]

Originally Posted by lostcause

To be fair you're comparing this squad to arguably the best 3-4 defense ever run in the NFL that had Lawrence Taylor on the same side as Leonard Marshall, the DE that got most of those dline sacks.

Good to shoot for the stars, but probably not fair to call the chiefs DEs "garbage" because they don't measure up to the BBWC. Additionally, the DEs in the Giants 3-4 were undersized drastically by todays standards of a 3-4 DE.

Actually, you are echoing my point. A team must have good players and these guys on the Chiefs DL so far just have not gotten it going. Re "undersized" this NYG group was one of the best run stuffer defenses ever, so size really isn't an issue.

The bottom line is and always will be players and this team just has not had any good BFF type DL guys going back more than a decade. I think they are on track, we'll see if some of the new players like Bailey and Powe, Poe or somebody can get pressure during passing downs.

Speaking of passing downs, you don't want your DL "taking up blockers" during a pass play. What has been going on here is that the staff is buying the team time giving you catch phrases like "we need them to take up blockers" yadayada. Well that's all dandy during run plays, but to have 3 linemen just standing around engaged on blockers during a pass play is just laughable suggestion. That is coach - speak, for sure.

You have to be good enough to "contain rush" your way to the QB and that depends on what your OLB's are doing also. A good NT helps too, he is the one in the middle that absolutely MUST 2 gap his way up field. Sometimes you make your ROLB play contain rush while your RDE comes up the b gap, but you have to have a player at RDE that can get it and Dorsey is not that guy.

They really need that guy at RDE that can apply pressure. It's not really about sacks, but sacks will accumulate when you get pressure from DL positions. Poe could perhaps fill in this season, Powe is fairly quick so maybe he can get it going there.

Somebody has got to get that position going in order for this type of defense to get working.

Between Bailey, Poe, Powe & Jackson, somebody has got to start applying pressure from the DL.

[Hammock Parties]

They really need that guy at RDE that can apply pressure.

You ****ing idiot.

The Chiefs do not play a 4-3.

In passing situations, Dorsey isn't even on the field. They know he's a shitty pass rusher.

[saphojunkie]

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning

You ****ing idiot.

The Chiefs do not play a 4-3.

In passing situations, Dorsey isn't even on the field. They know he's a shitty pass rusher.

Can you read?

[RustShack]

Originally Posted by The Macho Man

Having a stud NT isn't gonna make Dorsey and Jackson win their 1vs1

Our shitty NT didn't take up three or four blockers. Don't act like those two were only taking on one single blocker.

[RustShack]

Having a force at NT who can take up multiple blockers and still collapse the pocket is going to be huge for increasing the sack numbers. They wont be able to easily step away from Hali now, especially with Houston coming from the other side. Our DE's should even be able to steal a few sacks too, even though their primary job is to take up blockers to free up the LBers, and secondary job is to stop the run. Rushing the passer is a luxery that 3-4 DE's rarely can do.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by RustShack

Our shitty NT didn't take up three or four blockers. Don't act like those two were only taking on one single blocker.

Obviously im not saying that they're only one on one all the time, but they get ample opportunities to make a play in 1 vs 1 situations and just fail to do it.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by RustShack

Rushing the passer is a luxery that 3-4 DE's rarely can do.

Hardly. It's a passing league. There are plenty of chances to get after the QB. Once again, their job isn't to JUST tie up blockers like so many mistakenly preach.

Is tying up blockers emphasized more in a 34? Of course. But it's not an excuse for 1 sack between 2 primary players.

Look no further than the most productive 34's for proof. Their DE's do both jobs. Ours don't.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by The Macho Man

Their DE's do both jobs. Ours don't.

Outside of Ngata, I don't think DL on the Steelers or Ravens are racking up sacks.

[lostcause]

Last year the Steelers Dline had 6.5 sacks, Ravens 15.5, 49ers 13, Cowboys 10.5, Texans 16, Chiefs 7.5.

Do we need more production from our Dline. Sure it would be nice, but it is unfair to compare them against a squad from the 80s that was racking up 25-35 sacks a game.

Ravens, 49ers and Texans benefitted from the three real premiere pass rushing 3-4 dlinemen in the nfl.
Ngata: 5
Smith: 7.5
Watt: 5.5

Addionally, 6 of the Ravens sacks came from McPhee who I believe was really a situational pass rusher and less of a true 3-4 DE.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by lostcause

Last year the Steelers Dline had 6.5 sacks, Ravens 15.5, 49ers 13, Cowboys 10.5, Texans 16, Chiefs 7.5.

Do we need more production from our Dline. Sure it would be nice, but it is unfair to compare them against a squad from the 80s that was racking up 25-35 sacks a game.

Ravens, 49ers and Texans benefitted from the three real premiere pass rushing 3-4 dlinemen in the nfl.
Ngata: 5
Smith: 7.5
Watt: 5.5

Addionally, 6 of the Ravens sacks came from McPhee who I believe was really a situational pass rusher and less of a true 3-4 DE.

Only the Ravens or the Steelers are comparable to our system among the teams you've listed. All the others you're citing are 1-gaps.