Tony Gonzalez opens up on Herm with both barrels - Page 7

Hammock Parties · 12-02-2007, 11:04 PM

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chi...ry/387172.html

Chiefs can’t come back against Chargers
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

The Chiefs lost their ability to make enough plays to win close games some time ago. They ran out of explanations shortly afterward.

Now they’re just plain out of gas. They trailed by a mere touchdown for most of the second half of Sunday’s game against San Diego at Arrowhead Stadium, but they might have played until midnight without getting that elusive tying score.

So they wound up losing 24-10, and the defeat pushed the 4-8 Chiefs to the brink of extinction in what passes for a race in the AFC West. They’re officially done if they lose to the Broncos in Denver next week.

The Chiefs tried their usual formula — keep things close until the fourth quarter and make the plays to win it then. It worked for them earlier in the season but again failed on Sunday when they were shut out in the final quarter for the fourth straight game.

“I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. “It’s not what I’m into. I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Let’s get it over with. I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team. That’s bull. Let’s just go out there and win a football game.

“Let’s get rid of that stress. I’m tired of it. I’m sitting on the sideline thinking, ‘Here we go again.’ You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.”

That crisis of confidence was evident Sunday. Their seven-point deficit for most of the second half felt to them like a lot more.

Things got so bad for the offense that its only touchdown was scored by defensive end Jared Allen, who played on the goal-line ostensibly for blocking purposes. And Allen had to make a great catch of Damon Huard’s fade pass to do it.

“When you’re desperate,” Edwards said, “you do desperate things.”

Edwards hasn’t been desperate enough to change his philosophy on how to win. He defended it again Sunday, saying it’s the only way the Chiefs have a chance.

“We made plays (to win some early-season games),” Edwards said, referring to wins over Minnesota, San Diego and Oakland, all games the Chiefs salvaged in the fourth quarter. “That’s how we won.

“We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things we’re stuck with because of how we have to play.

“That’s OK. You can still win games that way. We just can’t get behind like that because that just puts you in a bad, bad way.”

The burden of keeping the game close fell to the defense, which again caved in. LaDainian Tomlinson rushed for 117 yards and two touchdowns in the second half.

“We know they’re going to make plays, realistically,” Allen said. “But to (heck) with that. Our mind-set has to be that they won’t make any plays. When stuff like that becomes acceptable, and all of a sudden you find yourself saying, ‘Oh, here we go again,’ that’s when the same (stuff) happens. That’s what’s been happening.

“We need to change the mind-set around here. The mind-set has got to be that this is not acceptable to lose at home. It’s not acceptable to be 10-10 at halftime and lose 24-10.”

The marvel regarding the Chiefs is not the five-game losing streak, their longest since 2000, or the five Arrowhead losses, most since they also lost five in 2001.

It’s that with this team — even with its numerous and obvious flaws — they won four of five games earlier in the season.

“Even then, we had some issues,” guard Brian Waters said. “When you look at games like Chicago and Houston, we had a couple of opportunities to come back in those games as well.

“We’ve started slowly in some parts of the season and now we’re not finishing the way we were. Really, we’re just trying to find a complete game.”

Pablo · 12-03-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zouk

0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1.

The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.

As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?

I think Sapp is a definite upgrade from what we're putting out their each week. Maybe if you stapled a Bob Evans coupon to the opposing WR's jersey they'd be more apt to stay on them, but they're just getting beat over and over. It's sad. And Pollard has been no gem at safety, he gets absolutely owned.

**cdcox** · 12-03-2007, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silock

We can't run. We can't throw. We can't execute trick plays. Is it Herm's "style of offense," or is it the players not being able to execute? I'll leave it to you to decide, but I know where your bias is and what you're going to conclude, anyway.

I'll admit to having an anti-Herm bias. I had it before he came. I tried to keep an open mind. But, every time Herm opens his mouth and talks about his philosophy on offense, it gets more conservative and worse performing. We did this voluntarily last year in the playoff game. The offense had been semi-effective with a mix of running and downfield passing. No one forced us to revert to a 100% sideways passing game then. But we did. And we opened the season that way too. Everything I see on the field week-after-week confirms my initial suspicions about Herm.

To elaborate just a bit more:

I have a preconception about Herm.
He says something (before the first game is played by his team) that reinforces my preconception.
The offensive philosophy on the field matches what Herm said he would do.
The offense performs poorly.
Herm says something else about the offense that further reinforces my preconception.
The offensive philosophy on the field matches what Herm said he would do.
The offense performs even more poorly.

Rinse and repeat.

What would a logical person conclude from this series of events? I conclude that my initial preconception was correct.

Zouk · 12-03-2007, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoRox88

I think Sapp is a definite upgrade from what we're putting out their each week. Maybe if you stapled a Bob Evans coupon to the opposing WR's jersey they'd be more apt to stay on them, but they're just getting beat over and over. It's sad. And Pollard has been no gem at safety, he gets absolutely owned.

I know you're right on Pollard, but I'm still not ready to give up on him. He came out as a junior, and didn't play D last year. So we're seeing baptism by fire for a very young player at a position where every error is glaring.

shyguyms · 12-03-2007, 12:24 AM

Herms a bum, he shouldn't be coaching in the NFL period.
Im *****ing done with this team til changes are made.

Pablo · 12-03-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zouk

I know you're right on Pollard, but I'm still not ready to give up on him. He came out as a junior, and didn't play D last year. So we're seeing baptism by fire for a very young player at a position where every error is glaring.

Oh, I'm not giving up on him yet. He makes big plays sometimes..he's the next Greg Wesley in my opinion, but if he doesn't step it up substantially next preseason or year, I think he could be relegated to the ST squad, with occasional looks as a OLB.

12-03-2007, 12:25 AM

Is somebody going to explain the whole "both barrels" concept? I'm still confused by the thread title.

Discuss.

tk13 · 12-03-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siberian khatru

I know tk13 and a few others around here still believe. They're patient. They think if we give it another year or two, we'll see progress and things will turn around. We'll get a winning record, get a playoff game, earn playoff experience, build on that, take the next step, etc.

Who knows, maybe they're right.

But I just don't have any faith in a Carl organization anymore. And I mean than in a quasi-religious way -- I have lost my faith. Not my fanhood -- I still follow the team -- but I just can't give Carl and Co. the benefit of a doubt anymore.

I'll still be here, although I may be an emotional zombie through much of it. And if we do turn it around, tk13 and zouk and those guys can really rub it in and tell me they were right.

Godspeed to them. I just don't have the energy to take one more leap into the fire with Carl.

I have less than zero faith in Carl, he should be fired, but I'm not confident he's going anywhere. And I think this could all blow up and we could be heading for a decade of garbage, but maybe not. You just don't know yet... a lot of it will probably depend on Croyle. The offensive line has to be fixed, quickly, or Herm probably won't make it beyond another year. And that's fine with me. I really am not going on some "real fan" tangent, I have nothing to rub in anyone's face. I don't blame people for not going to the games, I would have no desire to pay NFL ticket prices to see this team right now.

It's not even that, my biggest point would be, and I don't even want to say it... that the one thing I actually agree with Herm about is this team, as built right now, just can't open it up on offense. And that's probably 50% of the complaining on this board. Obviously you can't be run/run/pass totally predictable, but there have been times where we've passed the ball, opened it up, spread formations on 1st down, deep throws downfield, and just gotten clobbered. I just don't feel like arguing for 200 posts about it, there's just no point, which is why I don't even feel like posting. I lost faith in that after the Denver game. That was not a good defense, they gave up 44 points to Martz-ball the week before, so we opened it up, and their defense clobbered us, picked off Huard and Croyle both on deep balls, got sacks, fumbles, just clobbered us. Then the next week we went conservative against Indy and only lost by 3. Not that Herm handled the Indy game 100% correct, but you tell me which way suits this team better. In the ideal world, we'll address the offensive line and be able to open it up more next year. I don't think Herm is a gunslinger but I don't think he'd honestly be much worse than Cowher given similar talent. We'll see, I could be wrong.

Honestly, I think Carl might have beat the fanbase down far too much for Herm to ever have a chance. Which is too bad, but that's not totally Herm's fault. Trying to rebuild a roster with youth for the first time in the 27 year plan, nobody's gonna have the patience for that, fans or players.

Agent V · 12-03-2007, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phobia

Is somebody going to explain the whole "both barrels" concept? I'm still confused by the thread title.

Discuss.

Depends on your interpretation I guess (or how much you really hate Herm Edwards). Looks like Gonzalez just called out the offense itself and maybe Solari. He said he doesn't want to play this kind of football and doesn't think Herm wants to either.

shyguyms · 12-03-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Zouk
0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1.

The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.

As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?
__________________________________________________________

they havent come out yelling aout him yet but only because he is black and they feel they will look bad.

FAX · 12-03-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

I look at it very simply if Herm knew going into the season that our O-Line was going to suck then it is his fault for not trying to fix it. If he didn't know then everyone should question what the **** was he looking at during practice.

Yepporoloyoyo.

FAX

philfree · 12-03-2007, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zouk

I know you're right on Pollard, but I'm still not ready to give up on him. He came out as a junior, and didn't play D last year. So we're seeing baptism by fire for a very young player at a position where every error is glaring.

I like out two young S's they I wouldn't give up on either of them just yet. We're gonna have to get younger a CB and we could still use a truely dominating DT. After that we need to fix our O line with FA's and there's some good ones who'll be available. There will be plenty of $$bucks availble this year so I don't see this as a long term rebuilding process. Hell the NFL isn't a long term game these days so I expect a big improvement in '08.

PhilFree

Pablo · 12-03-2007, 12:31 AM

It just sucks that our team is actually making a valid attempt to get younger all around, and some people can't appreciate that.

I love the fact that we have the most productive rookie WR in the league, and our defense if full of faces 30 years or younger. It's just gonna be a while before we get a competent young group of guys who can compete week in and week out.

If nothing else, you've got to applaud Herm for bringing in a slew of solid young guys to build a foundation upon. Even if he isn't the coach who sees that youth prosper.

blueballs · 12-03-2007, 12:35 AM

“I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said.

“It’s not what I’m into.

I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to.

We want to win. Let’s get it over with.

I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team.

That’s bull.

Let’s just go out there and win a football game.

“Let’s get rid of that stress.

I’m tired of it.

I’m sitting on the sideline thinking,

‘Here we go again.’

You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.”

shyguyms · 12-03-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoRox88

It just sucks that our team is actually making a valid attempt to get younger all around, and some people can't appreciate that.

I love the fact that we have the most productive rookie WR in the league, and our defense if full of faces 30 years or younger. It's just gonna be a while before we get a competent young group of guys who can compete week in and week out.

If nothing else, you've got to applaud Herm for bringing in a slew of solid young guys to build a foundation upon. Even if he isn't the coach who sees that youth prosper.

You are happy that they are young and will be here awhile?
god damn it this team is 4-8 i don't want them here along time, all this says it that were young and these bums are here to stay!
holy shit herm as got to go, Law is over the hill
I cannot stand another fourth and 4 with a 2 yard pass im gonna kill be myself. Solari should move to IRAQ and Herm can be his driver!!!

philfree · 12-03-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shyguyms

You are happy that they are young and will be here awhile?
god damn it this team is 4-8 i don't want them here along time, all this says it that were young and these bums are here to stay!
holy shit herm as got to go, Law is over the hill
I cannot stand another fourth and 4 with a 2 yard pass im gonna kill be myself. Solari should move to IRAQ and Herm can be his driver!!!

You are an I D 10 T...!

12-02-2007, 11:04 PM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $1000478	Tony Gonzalez opens up on Herm with both barrels http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chi...ry/387172.html Chiefs can’t come back against Chargers By ADAM TEICHER The Kansas City Star The Chiefs lost their ability to make enough plays to win close games some time ago. They ran out of explanations shortly afterward. Now they’re just plain out of gas. They trailed by a mere touchdown for most of the second half of Sunday’s game against San Diego at Arrowhead Stadium, but they might have played until midnight without getting that elusive tying score. So they wound up losing 24-10, and the defeat pushed the 4-8 Chiefs to the brink of extinction in what passes for a race in the AFC West. They’re officially done if they lose to the Broncos in Denver next week. The Chiefs tried their usual formula — keep things close until the fourth quarter and make the plays to win it then. It worked for them earlier in the season but again failed on Sunday when they were shut out in the final quarter for the fourth straight game. “I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. “It’s not what I’m into. I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Let’s get it over with. I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team. That’s bull. Let’s just go out there and win a football game. “Let’s get rid of that stress. I’m tired of it. I’m sitting on the sideline thinking, ‘Here we go again.’ You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.” That crisis of confidence was evident Sunday. Their seven-point deficit for most of the second half felt to them like a lot more. Things got so bad for the offense that its only touchdown was scored by defensive end Jared Allen, who played on the goal-line ostensibly for blocking purposes. And Allen had to make a great catch of Damon Huard’s fade pass to do it. “When you’re desperate,” Edwards said, “you do desperate things.” Edwards hasn’t been desperate enough to change his philosophy on how to win. He defended it again Sunday, saying it’s the only way the Chiefs have a chance. “We made plays (to win some early-season games),” Edwards said, referring to wins over Minnesota, San Diego and Oakland, all games the Chiefs salvaged in the fourth quarter. “That’s how we won. “We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things we’re stuck with because of how we have to play. “That’s OK. You can still win games that way. We just can’t get behind like that because that just puts you in a bad, bad way.” The burden of keeping the game close fell to the defense, which again caved in. LaDainian Tomlinson rushed for 117 yards and two touchdowns in the second half. “We know they’re going to make plays, realistically,” Allen said. “But to (heck) with that. Our mind-set has to be that they won’t make any plays. When stuff like that becomes acceptable, and all of a sudden you find yourself saying, ‘Oh, here we go again,’ that’s when the same (stuff) happens. That’s what’s been happening. “We need to change the mind-set around here. The mind-set has got to be that this is not acceptable to lose at home. It’s not acceptable to be 10-10 at halftime and lose 24-10.” The marvel regarding the Chiefs is not the five-game losing streak, their longest since 2000, or the five Arrowhead losses, most since they also lost five in 2001. It’s that with this team — even with its numerous and obvious flaws — they won four of five games earlier in the season. “Even then, we had some issues,” guard Brian Waters said. “When you look at games like Chicago and Houston, we had a couple of opportunities to come back in those games as well. “We’ve started slowly in some parts of the season and now we’re not finishing the way we were. Really, we’re just trying to find a complete game.”
Posts: 296,770

12-03-2007, 12:24 AM	#94
shyguyms Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Casino cash: $10004900	Herms a bum, he shouldn't be coaching in the NFL period. Im *****ing done with this team til changes are made.
Posts: 258

12-03-2007, 12:25 AM	#96
Phobia Guest Casino cash: $	Is somebody going to explain the whole "both barrels" concept? I'm still confused by the thread title. Discuss.
Posts: n/a

12-03-2007, 12:28 AM	#99
shyguyms Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Casino cash: $10004900	Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Zouk 0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1. The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given. As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't? __________________________________________________________ they havent come out yelling aout him yet but only because he is black and they feel they will look bad.
Posts: 258

12-03-2007, 12:31 AM	#102
Pablo Ultrabanned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northland Casino cash: $-1690644	It just sucks that our team is actually making a valid attempt to get younger all around, and some people can't appreciate that. I love the fact that we have the most productive rookie WR in the league, and our defense if full of faces 30 years or younger. It's just gonna be a while before we get a competent young group of guys who can compete week in and week out. If nothing else, you've got to applaud Herm for bringing in a slew of solid young guys to build a foundation upon. Even if he isn't the coach who sees that youth prosper.
Posts: 43,802

12-03-2007, 12:35 AM	#103
blueballs Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Casino cash: $10004900	take it sentence by sentence “I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. “It’s not what I’m into. I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Let’s get it over with. I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team. That’s bull. Let’s just go out there and win a football game. “Let’s get rid of that stress. I’m tired of it. I’m sitting on the sideline thinking, ‘Here we go again.’ You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.”
Posts: 14,233