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Old 07-16-2018, 07:38 AM  
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Europe’s Dependence on the U.S. Was All Part of the Plan

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As feared, the president of the United States arrived at last week’s NATO summit in a mood of preposterous spleen, profound contempt and shocking rudeness. He insisted on sharing before the cameras imaginary facts that hadn’t a thing to do with the summit agenda, and he refused to listen to anyone who tried, however gently, to correct him. In the words of Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, “These are not negotiating tactics. They are the tactics of someone who does not want a deal.” In a private meeting, Donald Trump reportedly threatened that unless the allies boosted their military spending beyond previous agreements by January, the United States would “go it alone.” Nicholas Burns, a former U.S. ambassador to NATO, implored Americans not to “normalize” this. “He is the first American president since Harry Truman,” Burns noted, “to not believe that NATO is central to American national security interests.” And Burns is a Republican.

Trump’s NATO-bashing surprised no one. He has repeatedly suggested the United States’ postwar security architecture is a “bad deal,” one negotiated by weak and foolish “incompetents.” Foreign policy, in his view, is a zero-sum game; any benefit to another nation must of necessity be a loss for the United States. “NATO countries,” he declared on Twitter, “must pay MORE, the United States must pay LESS. Very Unfair!”

Unfair? A world that revolves around American military, economic and cultural power, and uses the U.S. dollar as its reserve currency?

What Trump fails to understand is that the disparity in spending, with the U.S. paying more than its allies, is not a bug of the system. It is a feature. This is how the great postwar statesmen designed it, and this immensely foresighted strategy has ensured the absence of great power conflict—and nuclear war—for three-quarters of a century.
....

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Indeed, Europeans cooperated with the U.S. program because it created conditions under which both the United States and Europe flourished. The United States assisted Europe’s postwar economic recovery with $13 billion of aid in the form of the Marshall Plan. (In today’s dollars, roughly $113 billion.) It midwifed the groupings and treaties that would become the European Union. It brought Europe under the U.S. security umbrella with the NATO treaty. Article V of the treaty, its most important element, declares that an attack on one member of NATO is an attack on all members. These policies were intended not only to counter the Soviet Union, but to condition Europe’s prosperity upon its integration into a single market, with free movement of goods, capital and labor. The founders of these institutions fully intended them to be the foundations of a United States of Europe, much like the United States of America. Profound economic interdependence, they believed, would make further European wars impossible.

At the same time, the United States built an open, global order upon an architecture of specific institutions: the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund and the International Court of Justice. This order is in many respects an empire—a Pax Americana—but it is more humane than any empire that preceded it, with institutions that are intended to benefit all parties. Postwar U.S. statesmen believed that prosperous, liberal democracies that traded freely with each other would neither go to war with each other nor the United States. They ascribed, in other words, to the so-called Democratic Peace theory—a theory with overwhelming empirical support.

The U.S. military was always an integral part of the plan to unite and rebuild Europe from the rubble. Since World War II, U.S. troops have been deployed in Eurasia to ensure the continent cannot be dominated by a single power capable of monopolizing its resources and turning them against the U.S. The United States has built overwhelmingly massive military assets there to deter local arms races before they begin, and it has simultaneously assured those under U.S. protection that there is no need to begin local arms races, for their safety is guaranteed. American grand strategy rests upon the credibility of its promise to protect American allies; this credibility rests, in turn, upon U.S. willingness to display its commitment. (The Berlin Airlift, when U.S. troops airlifted supplies to Berlin during a Soviet blockade, was precisely such a display.) In return for the United States’ commitment, U.S. allies have accepted America’s dominant role in the international system.
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The Soviet Union’s criticism of the Marshall Plan and other American involvement in Europe was eerily similar to the language Russia’s now uses in its campaign to undermine NATO and the EU. The vocabulary and tropes of Russian propaganda are widely echoed, wittingly or unwittingly, by far-right, far-left and other antiliberal politicians, parties and movements throughout the West. With the men who built the postwar world order now in their graves, and the memory of carnage and horror buried with them, a very sizable constituency of Americans has forgotten that their country built this system for a reason—that the United States does not maintain its alliances as an act of foolish largesse. The loudest exponent of the idea that the U.S. is getting rolled, that the European Union was “created to destroy us,” and that multilateral institutions such as the World Trade Organization assault the “sovereignty” of the nations concerned is, unfortunately, the president of the United States.
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It is true that the U.S. spends more on its military, in absolute dollars and as a percentage of GDP, than any European country. That was always part of the deal. The U.S. is a global superpower. It can fight a war anywhere in the world, invade any country at will, and (at least in theory) fight multiple simultaneous major wars—even in space. Of course this costs more. It is in America’s advantage to be the only power on the planet that can do this.

Conversely, it is not remotely in America’s advantage for other countries to spend as much money on their militaries as we do. Europe is America’s biggest export market, as designed. We want Europeans to spend their money enjoying U.S. goods and services, not razing Flanders to the ground yet again.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...endence-219011

I'll now wait for the Trump/Putin talking points.
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Old 07-18-2018, 01:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Over Yonder View Post
I know you probably didn't see the Cavuto/Paul interview, but what is your take on him in general?
I did see that interview.

My take on Paul is he is the only guy that I can imagine voting for in 2024.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:05 AM   #62
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
Here's a lesson in thinking 101, moron. Your peers here on CP consider you the biggest idiot on the site. That means you get zero credit by simply asserting a premise. You have to provide some evidence to support the idea that it's true.

You're attempting to say that having the biggest economy doesn't necessarily make a nation state more powerful than a rival (or collection of rivals). Ok, there's a premise. Back it up.

You might attempt to do this with a historical model that's somehow analogous to the situation the US faces in Europe with NATO. Or you can detail non-economic US power and lay out some kind of narrative suggesting how they can use those other forms of power to maintain dominance.

Simply throwing out a premise and telling me I can't think ISN'T A ****ING IDEA nor is it a meaningful contribution to an interesting conversation.

Let me give you a hint, you could perhaps look at the Peloponnesian War. Since I'm sure you don't have a clue about military history or why I say this historical conflict might support your argument, the Peloponnesian War was the ancient conflict between the Greek city states and the Persian Empire.

Perhaps your moronic ass has seen the horrifically inaccurate movie "The 300"? That was the key battle of the Pelopponesian War.

Hans Delbruk, in fact, does an extensive breakdown about how the much smaller and poorer Greek city states defeated the much wealthier Persian Empire.

I'm sure you're too lazy to read someone like Hans Delbruk, nor are you smart enough to understand his work even if you attempt it. But, on the off chance you're not a complete imbecile, you might look there. But, gosh I'm helping you out. I'm telling you that it's indeed possible for a weaker economic power to defeat a larger one and hinting that looking at these types of wars might help you.

The problem, of course, is I'm clearly pretty familiar with these type of conflicts and feel quite capable of blowing up this argument. But hey, maybe you can come up with something I haven't though of?

Nah. Not likely.

P.S. any argument you craft will have to deal with the looming problem of the Korean War. A VERY primitive China fought the United States to a standstill in Korea in the early 50's utilizing simple volume of troops. Given that the Chinese population is 1.37 billion vs. 320 million for the United States, how can the United States expect to militarily dominate a much more technically and economically advanced China that still has a massive population advantage when they couldn't do so in 1950?

You might talk about the ability to project power (as you have tried to do without developing this point), except there you run into the problem that a future China will most certainly be able to do so when their economy surpasses the US (current projections suggest this will happen in 2029 according to Bloomberg).
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...china-economy/
Wow. That's a lot of words to say nothing at all, just like really stupid people do.

For example, you lazily say "that's your premise, back it up", as if you provided any evidence that not having the world's largest economy automatically means no longer being a world super power.

I figured you might in those rants. But you just go off on stupid unrelated tagents.

How sad that you can say so many words with providing anything to back up your argument.

Oh, and I backed up mine. By pointing to the institutions and policies America created that allow us to stay on top.

This post cowardly runs away from those points.

What a pussy.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:08 AM   #63
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
Au contraire, LoneIdiot (imbecile translation from the French for LoneIdiot's benefit: on the contrary). I read the original. Notice that I pointed out that this opinion was written by a female. This fact isn't included in your redaction.

Seriously, haven't I made it eminently clear that I think you possess the relative IQ of a cumquat (vegetable)? Why, oh why, would I rely on you to present all of the relevant content of an article when you've parsed the text?

Get a clue.

Hey, guess what, I'm totally willing to concede arguendo (LoneIdiot translation: "for sake of argument" in latin) that while I think Trump is right to ask for more input from our NATO allies, he's going about it in a stupid way. Even more, his bull in a China shop diplomacy could hurt NATO and our relationship with our European allies.

Damn, LoneIdiot, I'm really being quite helpful to you. Still, you're giving me nada (LoneIdiot translation: Spanish for "nothing").
Saying the author is female isnt evidence yoi read the article. I dont even know what your point is there. My. God. You. Are. Stupid.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:12 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by SuperBowl4 View Post
petro dollars. OIL is the only thing pegged to the US dollar
Simply put, petrodollars are oil revenues denominated in U.S. dollars.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:23 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
owever, at this point I feel I must mention a small fly in the ointment (which, of course, LoneIdiot's transcendently brilliant and completely intellectually unassailable article that I apparently haven't read fails to mention). China has created an alternative means to clear international oil transactions called the Petro-yuan. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/24/petr...contracts.htm

This points out one big honking problem that LoneIdiot's article doesn't even allow a reader to see due to failure to mention relevant facts. The implicit assumption that the United States will continue to enjoy its current benefit level from the petro dollar and the dollar's reserve currency status isn't reasonable. In fact, any reasonable projection of future trends will have to include some degradation of these benefits.
I see you failed to.mention why oil is traded in dollars. Hmmm, I wonder why? Are you intentionally dishonest? Or just dont know?

Hint, it wasn't until the 1970s, well past 1945.

Anyway, it's an agreement with Saudia Arabia. What was one of the agreements? Defense.

So again I ask. Can China staff military bases in the middle east and Europe. Try not run away from this question this time.

And countries arent gong to go to the Chinese currency that isnt as stable as the dollar any time soon.

Also, I feel I must point out going "isnt reasonable" doesnt actually back up whatever stupid points you think you made.
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Wow. That's a lot of words to say nothing at all, just like really stupid people do.

For example, you lazily say "that's your premise, back it up", as if you provided any evidence that not having the world's largest economy automatically means no longer being a world super power.

I figured you might in those rants. But you just go off on stupid unrelated tagents.

How sad that you can say so many words with providing anything to back up your argument.

Oh, and I backed up mine. By pointing to the institutions and policies America created that allow us to stay on top.

This post cowardly runs away from those points.

What a pussy.
Pathetic
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:43 AM   #67
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Pathetic
Trust me, I'm not surprised you would defend someone who accuses others of exactly what they themselves are guilty of.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I see you failed to.mention why oil is traded in dollars. Hmmm, I wonder why? Are you intentionally dishonest? Or just dont know?

Hint, it wasn't until the 1970s, well past 1945.

Anyway, it's an agreement with Saudia Arabia. What was one of the agreements? Defense.

So again I ask. Can China staff military bases in the middle east and Europe. Try not run away from this question this time.

And countries arent gong to go to the Chinese currency that isnt as stable as the dollar any time soon.

Also, I feel I must point out going "isnt reasonable" doesnt actually back up whatever stupid points you think you made.

Hey, Lone, just because I explained how the petro dollar and how reserve currency benefits the US economy, doesn't mean I'm going to do ALL of your work for you.

Remember, the article I didn't read used the benefits drawn from the petro dollars and the dollar's reserve currency status to say that the US was well compensated for its military taking on the role of world policeman. Of course, it didn't explain how these benefits worked and neither did you.

So, Lone, why you don't you IN YOUR VERY OWN WORDS explain just where the petro dollar came from. Just linking, or cutting and pasting, the Bloomberg story that explained this would be cheating. Here at CP we want to be enlightened by LONEIDIOT'S transcendent brilliance and insight into world affairs.

Obviously, you think this story helps your argument somehow. LAY IT ON US!!! But, LoneIdiot, you can't just explain the origin of the petrodollar, you have to CONNECT it to your argument and show how it supports your position.

I TOTALLY WANT TO SEE THIS.

MAKE A ****ING CONTRIBUTION FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR CP CAREER!!!!!

I'm waiting on pins and needles to see if this miracle can actually happen. I wouldn't dream of taking this historic opportunity away from you.

P.S. Are you going to link Bloomberg news who actually got this story, or a watered down version from some left-wing site? I guess both are acceptable since we need to make allowances for material coming from you.

Last edited by JohnnyV13; 07-18-2018 at 05:00 PM..
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:29 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Saying the author is female isnt evidence yoi read the article. I dont even know what your point is there. My. God. You. Are. Stupid.
You don't know what my point is, and I'm the one that's stupid?!?!?! Oh God, I can't make this stuff up.

Ok, LoneIdiot, I'll spell it out for you since you obviously can't follow even basic reasoning:

1. This article was written by a Politico.com writer named Claire Berlinski

2. Claire Berlinski is obviously female.

3. You posted excerpts from Claire Berlinski's article here on CP in the thread starter. The excerpts you posted DID NOT INCLUDE ANYTHING TO INDICATE THE AUTHOR OF THE PIECE WAS FEMALE.

4. You included a link to the original work with your thread starter.

5. Since I mentioned the fact that the author of your famous article was female, obviously I must have clicked on the link that took me to the original piece at Politico.com

6. In the legal profession, they teach us that "evidence is a brick, not a wall". What this phrase means is that valid evidence need not be absolute proof of whatever proposition it is offered to support, instead evidence merely must show that said proposition is more likely to be true.

7. The fact that I followed your link to the original article obviously makes it more likely true that I did indeed read your article, since I could not have read the original article without following the link.


Since we are already at a length that you have called a "wall of text" in other posts, I'll stop right here. If you require further assistance understanding the points made in this post, feel free to ask. I'll be happy to explain.

Your friend,

JohnnyV13

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Old 07-19-2018, 12:53 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post

What a pussy.
How can you profess to be a liberal when you hurl misogynistic insults like this? I'm offended at your sexism. Honestly, I'd suggest you be castrated as just punishment, but you can't castrate someone who simply has nothing to surgically remove.
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:02 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
So, Lone, why you don't you IN YOUR VERY OWN WORDS explain just where the petro dollar came from.
I think this was the main idea of that whatever the f that was. Who knows. Your all over the place.

But let me get this straight. You aren't denying that the dollar being a world currency in part thanks to being a crude oil standard, kind of like a gold standard, is one of the reasons we are a world super power.

You just want me to talk about the deal Nixon made with Saudi Arabia in the 70s after we became a fiat currency in 1971? And why that helps America?

Your argument is basically then "Get into the little details of currency economics as it relates to the dollar being an oil standard or your I refuse to accept your point I don't disagree with"?

Okay. You have fun with that.
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:06 AM   #72
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You don't know what my point is, and I'm the one that's stupid?!?!?! Oh God, I can't make this stuff up.
You just spent over 200 words to say "Yes, I'm stupid enough to think saying the author is a women as evidence I read an article."

How sad for you.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You just spent over 200 words to say "Yes, I'm stupid enough to think saying the author is a women as evidence I read an article."

How sad for you.
I spent 200 words making fun of your inability to understand what the word “evidence” means when you’re willing to put your ability to read and analyze legal cases up against anyone.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:34 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
I spent 200 words making fun of your inability to understand what the word “evidence” means when you’re willing to put your ability to read and analyze legal cases up against anyone.
Saying the author is a girl isn't evidence you read anything.

Goddamn, how dumb do you have to be to triple down on something that stupid.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:37 AM
JohnnyV13
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:39 AM   #75
JohnnyV13 JohnnyV13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I think this was the main idea of that whatever the f that was. Who knows. Your all over the place.

But let me get this straight. You aren't denying that the dollar being a world currency in part thanks to being a crude oil standard, kind of like a gold standard, is one of the reasons we are a world super power.

You just want me to talk about the deal Nixon made with Saudi Arabia in the 70s after we became a fiat currency in 1971? And why that helps America?

Your argument is basically then "Get into the little details of currency economics as it relates to the dollar being an oil standard or your I refuse to accept your point I don't disagree with"?

Okay. You have fun with that.
LoneIdiot, I’m saying that international oil transactions being denominated in dollars strengthens the US dollar in world currency markets. If you want to claim it means anything more than that, you have to make the argument. How you make that case is up to you.

Lone, I’m here to be englightened by your brilliance and insight. Why would I deny myself one scintilla of your genious (CP spelling)?
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