Rand defends Gretz; rips JoPo's article

[shaneo69]

RAND: Sympathy for the voters
Feb 08, 2007, 4:24:41 AM by Jonathan Rand

I’m never sure whether to be amused or disgusted by the criticism directed at Hall of Fame voters in any sport whenever a local favorite falls short of induction.

If all the fans and media critics in every city could get all their favorites enshrined, every Hall of Fame would have so many members as to render itself meaningless. If you elect 1,000 players, what you’d have is a gigantic card show, not a Hall of Fame.

Certainly, anybody has the right to question a selection or omission for any Hall of Fame. But why does the criticism have to become personal and even slanderous?

When our own Buck O’Neill was passed over for Cooperstown by a special Negro Leagues committee, we read about some never-substantiated personal grudge that supposedly derailed his chances.

Now that former Chiefs linebacker Derrick Thomas has fallen short of the Pro Football Hall of Fame for the third time, a local columnist belittles the election committee as a “40-man party crew,” as if there’s something reckless or inebriated about its decision making. And, actually, there are two women on the committee now.

This is reminiscent of Lawrence Taylor. The former Giants linebacker, convinced he might be denied election because of a disgraceful series of drug arrests, claimed the electors were hypocrites because most, he said, were drunks chasing little girls on Miami Beach. Because the Pro Football Hall of Fame takes personal behavior off the table, Taylor was a first-ballot inductee in 1999.

This is some party. As a former Hall of Fame elector, I can assure you that serving on that committee is an honor. It’s also a pain in the butt. You spend the Saturday before the Super Bowl, your only free day of the week, cooped up in a hotel meeting room listening to presentations and discussions for all finalists, which numbered 17 this year.

Personally, I would rather walk barefoot on the ice in my driveway than listen to a one-hour discussion over whether former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue belongs in the Hall of Fame. It’s beyond me why you would enshrine an executive because he did for the league — albeit very well — exactly what he was hired to do.

The vast majority of the electors have watched pro football for decades, diligently prepare their homework and care passionately about voting for the right people.

A case for a candidate that might seem overpowering to the average fan may be badly flawed in the eyes of voters who know a sport inside and out. Once you’re caught with gaping holes in your argument, your candidate is finished. If Kansas City representative Bob Gretz can’t make a convincing case for Thomas or any other candidate, nobody can.

The decisions are difficult because you’re often trying to distinguish between truly excellent football players and the all-time greats. This is the border Thomas keeps trying to cross.

Some votes are philosophical. How can you exclude Ray Guy, indisputably the greatest punter of all time? The prevailing sentiment is that a guy who trots in and kicks the ball six times a game and seldom gets his uniform dirty is not a Hall of Famer.

The seamheads who vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame fancy themselves the best informed and most discriminating voters for any Hall, and maybe they are. But they absorb plenty of cheap shots, too.

There was a lengthy Sunday opinion story in the New York Times a few years ago claiming that former Boston Red Sox outfielder Jim Rice keeps getting excluded because of his contentious relationship with reporters. (My few encounters with him were fine.) Nowhere was it mentioned that pitcher Steve Carlton, possibly the most media-hostile star in the history of baseball, was elected to Cooperstown on the first ballot.

Hall of Fame electors must have thick skins, though I must admit even I became offended once. An NFL ex-star once approached me and said he’d been told that he wasn’t in the Hall of Fame because I didn’t like him. He added that he couldn’t understand this because we’d gotten along so well during his playing days.

I never knew the man during his playing days. But you know what? He made almost as much sense as most of the people who rip Hall of Fame voters.

The opinions offered in this column do not necessarily reflect those of Carl Peterson.

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2007/02...or_the_voters/

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by grandllama

I've read Gretz' speech in the past. It makes a very clear case for DT, but lacks passion. It is everything I respect in Gretz as a journalist, but everything I dislike when it comes to persuasive arguments.

If people don't respect DT, you've got to persuade them. Persuasion is not in Gretz's repertoire.

The HoF voters obviously don't have their shit together, otherwise Michael Irvin wouldn't be in the HoF. Or maybe that's Bob Gretz' fault too?

[grandllama]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Not at all.

But they certainly don't blame Bob Gretz for it either.

I don't want it to seem like I'm slamming Gretz, but the stats prove that DT should be in the Hall, however Gretz is not getting that point across.

We've went from (and I agree) "He's not a first balloter" to "I doubt he ever makes it" (from some media sources)

That is not right and indicates a change in presentation is required.

[grandllama]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

The HoF voters obviously don't have their shit together, otherwise Michael Irvin wouldn't be in the HoF. Or maybe that's Bob Gretz' fault too?

Irvin obviously had somebody impassioned present his case. Again, I'm not slamming Gretz... unlike some on this board, I really like his journalistic style. BUT... I think somethings in his presentation may need tweaking.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by grandllama

I don't want it to seem like I'm slamming Gretz, but the stats prove that DT should be in the Hall, however Gretz is not getting that point across.

We've went from (and I agree) "He's not a first balloter" to "I doubt he ever makes it" (from some media sources)

That is not right and indicates a change in presentation is required.

And when they change presenters and DT STILL doesn't get in? Who's the scapegoat then?

Derrick Thomas was a KC Chief, on a team that consistently choked in big games and never made a Super Bowl. Making the HoF is an uphill battle, with or without Bob Gretz.

[grandllama]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

And when they change presenters and DT STILL doesn't get in? Who's the scapegoat then?

Derrick Thomas was a KC Chief, on a team that consistently choked in big games and never made a Super Bowl. Making the HoF is an uphill battle, with or without Bob Gretz.

I don't know what you do... all I am saying is that Gretz has tried the best he knows how... what is it going to hurt to change up the presentation?

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by grandllama

I don't know what you do... all I am saying is that Gretz has tried the best he knows how... what is it going to hurt to change up the presentation?

I don't have a problem with replacing Gretz.

I have a problem with singling out Gretz as the reason DT isn't in the Hall.

[grandllama]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I don't have a problem with replacing Gretz.

I have a problem with singling out Gretz as the reason DT isn't in the Hall.

I tried to make it clear I wasn't blaming Gretz, I am blaming the approach. I do agree that it is going to be an uphill battle no matter who presents and unless Will comes back this year and we win the Super Bowl we will be having the same argument down the road about Will & Tony.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by grandllama

I tried to make it clear I wasn't blaming Gretz, I am blaming the approach. I do agree that it is going to be an uphill battle no matter who presents and unless Will comes back this year and we win the Super Bowl we will be having the same argument down the road about Will & Tony.

Will and Tony won't have nearly the trouble. They're offensive players. Offensive players get in at a nearly 3:1 rate over defensive players.

[Halfcan]

The point is Gretz had his shot-give it to someone that can do a better job. DT belongs in the Hall. I wish Dr Z would die already-I hate that old fugger.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Halfcan

The point is Gretz had his shot-give it to someone that can do a better job. DT belongs in the Hall. I wish Dr Z would die already-I hate that old fugger.

So give somebody else a shot. And when they fail to get DT in as well, blame them too.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Absolutely not. Then you're going to have people getting votes just because someone on the committee played for the same team.

Just put in a rule you cant do that.

Thomas will get in. Guy on the radio said there was a logjam this year.

[Halfcan]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

So give somebody else a shot. And when they fail to get DT in as well, blame them too.

I was thinking someone like Marcus Allen or Montana. Somone that knew DT and has the voters respect. Seems it has turned into a personal pissing match with Gretz.

The sack/strip/ fumble is the most exciting play on defense and DT was the king of it. It makes me wonder what they could be thinking when they put in a thug like Irvin and leave out a former NFL Man of the Year???

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Halfcan

I was thinking someone like Marcus Allen or Montana. Somone that knew DT and has the voters respect. Seems it has turned into a personal pissing match with Gretz.

The sack/strip/ fumble is the most exciting play on defense and DT was the king of it. It makes me wonder what they could be thinking when they put in a thug like Irvin and leave out a former NFL Man of the Year???

Nothing I have heard suggest it's a personal pissing match with Gretz. It's a personal pissing match with a defensive player that never won a Super Bowl.

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Absolutely not. Then you're going to have people getting votes just because someone on the committee played for the same team.

You've already got that with journalists covering the same team. Do you think Gretz doesn't vote for every Steeler and Chief who becomes eligible?

[teedubya]

I think anyone named Gretz or Mods named Parker are full of shit.