1993 Chiefs and the 2001 Chiefs: Similarities/Differences

KCJohnny · 06-19-2001, 09:35 AM

In 1993, KC brought in Joe Montana from SF, his offensive coordinator, Paul Hackett, and RB Marcus Allen from the Raiders. The Chiefs went from the play-action smash mouth of '89-92 to a hybrid of Left Coast and Maulball (see: 2000 Raiders). They advanced all the way to the AFC Title game (13-6 overall). Incidentally, Al Saunders was the WRs coach on that team.

In 2001, The Chiefs brought in Dick Vermiel, Saunders and Trent Green, all from StL. They have brought in Greg Robinson as DC and will feature a hybrid (my term) between Air Coryell and smash mouth (just watch, I'm right on this one).

Main differences: Marty's entire staff except OC was intact. This is an entirely new staff. Also, the QB/RB brought in are first ballot HOFers. Compare Green/Holmes. Also, two words: Neil Smith/Derrick Thomas.

Still, the Chiefs stormed all the way to the AFC Championshiop game mostly on Montana's 38 yr old arm. It can happen. Will it?

Your thoughts?

KCJ

Packfan · 06-19-2001, 09:54 AM

KC,

I agree that similar moves were made in 1993, but there is one huge difference: Montana and Allen are hall of famers. Holmes and Green are journeymen. Neither will ever be mentioned in the same breath as Montana and Allen. Yes Allen and Montana were near the end of their careers, but they new how to play the game and new how to win. Plus, the Chiefs had a pretty good defense then too. The current defense sucks.

Dont get your hopes up. The Chiefs have fallen to the bottom tier teams in the league. Giving up the 12th pick in the draft for a journeyman-free agent to be QB isnt the best path to the AFC Championship and signing Priest Holmes wont make much of a difference. Why they hired Vermeil is beyond me. They arent close to making a championship run and Vermeil is 67 years old. Certainly, he wont be around when Peterson finally figures out that you have to build from the draft to win championships.

A lot of you guys are convinced the Chiefs are doing things the right way. Not me. They should have hired a young offensive mind, signed a stop gap QB (Free agent), draft a running back with the 12th pick, and then plan on having a top ten pick next year. The Chiefs have had two picks as high as this years #1. Those two picks turned into Derrick Thomas and Tony Gonzalez. Not to shabby. This years pick turned into a 30 year, injury prone QB that has been a free agent twice in his career and probably would have been one again if the Chiefs hadnt caved in (nobody else was trying to trade for him and the Rams were over the cap).

Sorry to rain on the parade!

**BigMeatballDave** · 06-19-2001, 11:25 AM

Fudgepackerfan - so, please tell us where that so-called stop gap QB is? How is Holmes a journeyman? The Ravens drafted him.

**The Bad Guy** · 06-19-2001, 11:45 AM

Packfan whines:[QUOTE]Dont get your hopes up. The Chiefs have fallen to the bottom tier teams in the league. Giving up the 12th pick in the draft for a journeyman-free agent to be QB isnt the best path to the AFC Championship[/QUOTE]

Since when is Green a free agent to be?

2 more years on a contract doesn't qualify as that.

Anyway, why are you here? The Packers have fallen to the bottom tier of the league as well. Outside of Favre and Sharper, your team has noone. Freeman is a bust after getting big money, and Levens couldn't stay healthy if his life depended on it.

I suppose the Chiefs should of went the Packer way and drafted a player like Bubba Franks with a first pick.

I think you need to go back and hit the dictionary on the word journeyman as well. Priest Holmes played for ONE team in his NFL career. And he's only 27 years old. I guess by your defiiniton, your running back Ahman Green is also a journeyman.

Packfan whines again: [QUOTE]This years pick turned into a 30 year, injury prone QB that has been a free agent twice in his career and probably would have been one again if the Chiefs hadnt caved in (nobody else was trying to trade for him and the Rams were over the cap). [/QUOTE]

The Rams had 7+ million in cap space when the trade for Green was made. I would also like to know how Green is injury prone. One injury doesn't earn the label of injury prone. Yes he had a major knee surgery, but he managed to play in 8 games last year and wasn't 100% and the knee held up fine.

It just boggles me why you care so much about Trent Green and the Chiefs. You would never see me discussing football on any Packer message board because I could care less what happens with that team.

I will be willing to bet money on the fact that KC will have a better record than your beloved cheeseheads.

Put up or shutup Ken.

Mark M · 06-19-2001, 11:50 AM

First of all, let me say it's kinda nice to see you've crawled out from under that rock you call home. Or did they just now let you put a keyboard next to the fry vat?

Holmes, a journeyman? He's played with one team, dumba$$. How is that a "journeyman"?

As far as Green goes ... well, okay. I agree with that one ... kind of. While I like the fact we got a QB, a WR/PR and a RB (Blaylock, a RB we got in the [i]draft[/i]) with our #12, I'm still not quite sold. But, unlike you, I'll wait until I see what happens.

Also, if a team is to build from the draft, like you say, how is it that Green Bay's teams were built through FA?? Favre ... a Falcon; Reggie White ... an Eagle; Desmond Howard ... too many to mention; Andre Rison ... see Howard. Without these players, no SB victory for GB.

Good teams build through the draft [i]and[/i] FA. It's a shame you're too stupid to notice.

MM
~~Moderately glad to see the whipping boy back on the board.

**BigMeatballDave** · 06-19-2001, 12:59 PM

fudgepackerfan reminds me of some kid that throws/says something and rides off on his bike - guttless turd

KCJohnny · 06-19-2001, 01:48 PM

Guys,
Whatever Packfan's veiws are, he did not stoop to crass name-calling like some of you did. I think we can do better than that. That says more about us than Ken.

Ken obviously has an axe to grind with Carl Petersen. So what. Let's talk football and leave the name-calling to the Trolls.

Back on topic:
The '93 Chiefs have the edge in talent, but (according to most people on this BB) the '01 Chiefs have the edge in coaching (the ostensible reason for KC's 7-9 finish in '00). Now, if that be so, the '01 Chiefs should at least win the Division (applying the conventional wisdom here). If the Ringed staff of the '01 Chiefs can't get it done, what will the reason be?

Also, the 1993 Chiefs scored a strong 375 points with ___________ at WR and TE. Not dissing Willie Davis and JJ Birden, but compare w/DA, Gonzo, Sly, etc...

Will the '01 Chiefs do more with more, less with more?

The '93 Chiefs did more with less...

KCJ

KCTitus · 06-19-2001, 01:58 PM

[i]The '93 Chiefs have the edge in talent, but (according to most people on this BB) the '01 Chiefs have the edge in coaching (the ostensible reason for KC's 7-9 finish in '00). Now, if that be so, the '01 Chiefs should at least win the Division (applying the conventional wisdom here). If the Ringed staff of the '01 Chiefs can't get it done, what will the reason be?[/i]

What a wonderful supposition that is completely absurd. I have not read one post on this BB where anyone has stated that the coaching staff alone will win KC the division.

Cmon, Proctor, let's try to keep a lid on the hyperbole.

I have read that last years staff cost KC 2 games. What would that mean? A change from 7-9 to 9-7. Given the questions in the secondary and the schedule, that's not a wild prediction for anyone to make.

Mark M · 06-19-2001, 01:59 PM

KCJ--
[quote]Let's talk football and leave the name-calling to the Trolls.[/quote]

Two things:

1. If Pack would actually talk football and not just bash Carl and everything the Chiefs do, then I would do the same.

2. Ken is the ultimate Troll. One would think you'd know that by now.

Back to the topic:
This team, IMO, is nothing like the '93 team, unless you consider the matching changes in position players. The offense is more innovative now and the offensive players are better (Montana was washed up when he arrived here. Allen was still good, but not the player he had been in the past).

The defense isn't nearly as good (something I agree with Pack about) but not as bad as some think, although the secondary still worries me. To say the defense "sucks" is nowhere near true. Sure, we don't have Smith or Thomas, but I think our D-Line is better overall now than it was then, and depth at LB now is better than the one-man-show we had then (even though I hate Bush).

Also, the division is much stronger now than it was in '93 (Seattle was still a doormat, San Diego was competent but nowhere near their '95 form, Denver had issues and the Faiders were their typical underachieving selves). Because of that, I will hesitate to claim the '01 version division champs.

I will also hesitate to rip on them, since I, and everyone else, haven't seen them take a snap, have no idea what cuts will be made at training camp and who will be the true starters.

MM
~~Taking a wait and see approach.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan · 06-19-2001, 02:04 PM

While the fan in me would like to believe that the Chiefs will walk away with the Division Championship, the Conference Championship and the Super Bowl this year, the realist in me says, not this year. :(

However, to think that the team will be improved from last year is a very achievable goal. <b> I will not allow anyone to pin me into stating that unless we get to the Conference Championship game that the current coaching staff is worthless.</b> There're are too many questions and variables.

However, unlike Chuck, I'm not going to predict a 6-10 season. I'd say 9-7 is not unrealistic in DV's first season. I'd say the Chiefs make a serious run at the playoffs in 2002 and that we're serious contenders in 2003, barring unforseen injuries and off-season mishaps.

I think this season start a tad slow, but build to a very satisfying conclusion as the players and coaching staff all get to know one another. I think a very solid nucleus of a young team is being developed and with the proper tutalige, the Chiefs are going to once again be a force to be dealt with in the AFC West and beyond.

(and personally, I don't let Ken get to me. Course, the fact that I have him on ignore might have something to do with it :p )

**AustinChief** · 06-19-2001, 02:35 PM

The difference is DEFENSE... if our current defense proves itself as capable as our D from the early-mid 90s... then making it to the Division Championship is not far fetched at all...

Though, I think that it will be a year or two before we get the defense back in shape...

--Kyle

KCTitus · 06-19-2001, 02:37 PM

MCF: gotta love that ignore feature...

Mark M · 06-19-2001, 02:42 PM

Crap!! I forgot about the ignore feature! Thanks for reminding me! :D :D :D

Sorry Ken ... won't be able top respond to your intelligent and well-thought-out posts! :rolleyes:

MM
~~Changing his profile ASAP!!

Mark M · 06-19-2001, 02:44 PM

Well ... what do you know. No more Kenny!

:D :D :D :D

MM
~~Would like to thank Kyle for making this possible

HC_Chief · 06-19-2001, 02:44 PM

GODAMMIT! I wrote a lengthy response and the damn server 'farted' when I hit the post button. When I hit 'back' on my browser, all text = gone. GRRRRRRRRR :mad: :mad: :mad:

06-19-2001, 09:35 AM	Topic Starter
KCJohnny Blind, deceived homer Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Maryland, USA Casino cash: $10004900	1993 Chiefs and the 2001 Chiefs: Similarities/Differences In 1993, KC brought in Joe Montana from SF, his offensive coordinator, Paul Hackett, and RB Marcus Allen from the Raiders. The Chiefs went from the play-action smash mouth of '89-92 to a hybrid of Left Coast and Maulball (see: 2000 Raiders). They advanced all the way to the AFC Title game (13-6 overall). Incidentally, Al Saunders was the WRs coach on that team. In 2001, The Chiefs brought in Dick Vermiel, Saunders and Trent Green, all from StL. They have brought in Greg Robinson as DC and will feature a hybrid (my term) between Air Coryell and smash mouth (just watch, I'm right on this one). Main differences: Marty's entire staff except OC was intact. This is an entirely new staff. Also, the QB/RB brought in are first ballot HOFers. Compare Green/Holmes. Also, two words: Neil Smith/Derrick Thomas. Still, the Chiefs stormed all the way to the AFC Championshiop game mostly on Montana's 38 yr old arm. It can happen. Will it? Your thoughts? KCJ
Posts: 6,347

06-19-2001, 09:54 AM	#2
Packfan Starter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Green Bay, WI, Door Casino cash: $10004900	KC, I agree that similar moves were made in 1993, but there is one huge difference: Montana and Allen are hall of famers. Holmes and Green are journeymen. Neither will ever be mentioned in the same breath as Montana and Allen. Yes Allen and Montana were near the end of their careers, but they new how to play the game and new how to win. Plus, the Chiefs had a pretty good defense then too. The current defense sucks. Dont get your hopes up. The Chiefs have fallen to the bottom tier teams in the league. Giving up the 12th pick in the draft for a journeyman-free agent to be QB isnt the best path to the AFC Championship and signing Priest Holmes wont make much of a difference. Why they hired Vermeil is beyond me. They arent close to making a championship run and Vermeil is 67 years old. Certainly, he wont be around when Peterson finally figures out that you have to build from the draft to win championships. A lot of you guys are convinced the Chiefs are doing things the right way. Not me. They should have hired a young offensive mind, signed a stop gap QB (Free agent), draft a running back with the 12th pick, and then plan on having a top ten pick next year. The Chiefs have had two picks as high as this years #1. Those two picks turned into Derrick Thomas and Tony Gonzalez. Not to shabby. This years pick turned into a 30 year, injury prone QB that has been a free agent twice in his career and probably would have been one again if the Chiefs hadnt caved in (nobody else was trying to trade for him and the Rams were over the cap). Sorry to rain on the parade! __________________ Ken Dienberg
Posts: 938

06-19-2001, 11:25 AM	#3
BigMeatballDave GBM 8-12-15 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Dayton, Oh. Casino cash: $10052154	Fudgepackerfan - so, please tell us where that so-called stop gap QB is? How is Holmes a journeyman? The Ravens drafted him.
Posts: 59,997

06-19-2001, 11:45 AM	#4
The Bad Guy Scott Pioli Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The Copacobana Casino cash: $9373645	Packfan whines:[QUOTE]Dont get your hopes up. The Chiefs have fallen to the bottom tier teams in the league. Giving up the 12th pick in the draft for a journeyman-free agent to be QB isnt the best path to the AFC Championship[/QUOTE] Since when is Green a free agent to be? 2 more years on a contract doesn't qualify as that. Anyway, why are you here? The Packers have fallen to the bottom tier of the league as well. Outside of Favre and Sharper, your team has noone. Freeman is a bust after getting big money, and Levens couldn't stay healthy if his life depended on it. I suppose the Chiefs should of went the Packer way and drafted a player like Bubba Franks with a first pick. I think you need to go back and hit the dictionary on the word journeyman as well. Priest Holmes played for ONE team in his NFL career. And he's only 27 years old. I guess by your defiiniton, your running back Ahman Green is also a journeyman. Packfan whines again: [QUOTE]This years pick turned into a 30 year, injury prone QB that has been a free agent twice in his career and probably would have been one again if the Chiefs hadnt caved in (nobody else was trying to trade for him and the Rams were over the cap). [/QUOTE] The Rams had 7+ million in cap space when the trade for Green was made. I would also like to know how Green is injury prone. One injury doesn't earn the label of injury prone. Yes he had a major knee surgery, but he managed to play in 8 games last year and wasn't 100% and the knee held up fine. It just boggles me why you care so much about Trent Green and the Chiefs. You would never see me discussing football on any Packer message board because I could care less what happens with that team. I will be willing to bet money on the fact that KC will have a better record than your beloved cheeseheads. Put up or shutup Ken. __________________
Posts: 23,212

06-19-2001, 11:50 AM	#5
Mark M What time is it? Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: You tell me ... Casino cash: $9884900	Dangit 30, you beat me to it!! First of all, let me say it's kinda nice to see you've crawled out from under that rock you call home. Or did they just now let you put a keyboard next to the fry vat? Holmes, a journeyman? He's played with one team, dumba$$. How is that a "journeyman"? As far as Green goes ... well, okay. I agree with that one ... kind of. While I like the fact we got a QB, a WR/PR and a RB (Blaylock, a RB we got in the [i]draft[/i]) with our #12, I'm still not quite sold. But, unlike you, I'll wait until I see what happens. Also, if a team is to build from the draft, like you say, how is it that Green Bay's teams were built through FA?? Favre ... a Falcon; Reggie White ... an Eagle; Desmond Howard ... too many to mention; Andre Rison ... see Howard. Without these players, no SB victory for GB. Good teams build through the draft [i]and[/i] FA. It's a shame you're too stupid to notice. MM ~~Moderately glad to see the whipping boy back on the board. __________________ ChiefsPlanet -- n. The place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions. Last edited by Mark M; 06-19-2001 at 11:52 AM..
Posts: 4,687

06-19-2001, 12:59 PM	#6
BigMeatballDave GBM 8-12-15 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Dayton, Oh. Casino cash: $10052154	fudgepackerfan reminds me of some kid that throws/says something and rides off on his bike - guttless turd
Posts: 59,997

06-19-2001, 01:48 PM	#7
KCJohnny Blind, deceived homer Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Maryland, USA Casino cash: $10004900	Cool it! Guys, Whatever Packfan's veiws are, he did not stoop to crass name-calling like some of you did. I think we can do better than that. That says more about us than Ken. Ken obviously has an axe to grind with Carl Petersen. So what. Let's talk football and leave the name-calling to the Trolls. Back on topic: The '93 Chiefs have the edge in talent, but (according to most people on this BB) the '01 Chiefs have the edge in coaching (the ostensible reason for KC's 7-9 finish in '00). Now, if that be so, the '01 Chiefs should at least win the Division (applying the conventional wisdom here). If the Ringed staff of the '01 Chiefs can't get it done, what will the reason be? Also, the 1993 Chiefs scored a strong 375 points with ___________ at WR and TE. Not dissing Willie Davis and JJ Birden, but compare w/DA, Gonzo, Sly, etc... Will the '01 Chiefs do more with more, less with more? The '93 Chiefs did more with less... KCJ
Posts: 6,347

06-19-2001, 01:58 PM	#8
KCTitus Archivist Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ethernet Casino cash: $9902732	[i]The '93 Chiefs have the edge in talent, but (according to most people on this BB) the '01 Chiefs have the edge in coaching (the ostensible reason for KC's 7-9 finish in '00). Now, if that be so, the '01 Chiefs should at least win the Division (applying the conventional wisdom here). If the Ringed staff of the '01 Chiefs can't get it done, what will the reason be?[/i] What a wonderful supposition that is completely absurd. I have not read one post on this BB where anyone has stated that the coaching staff alone will win KC the division. Cmon, Proctor, let's try to keep a lid on the hyperbole. I have read that last years staff cost KC 2 games. What would that mean? A change from 7-9 to 9-7. Given the questions in the secondary and the schedule, that's not a wild prediction for anyone to make. __________________ Anything you post on this BB can and will be used against you...
Posts: 26,192

06-19-2001, 01:59 PM	#9
Mark M What time is it? Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: You tell me ... Casino cash: $9884900	KCJ-- [quote]Let's talk football and leave the name-calling to the Trolls.[/quote] Two things: 1. If Pack would actually talk football and not just bash Carl and everything the Chiefs do, then I would do the same. 2. Ken is the ultimate Troll. One would think you'd know that by now. Back to the topic: This team, IMO, is nothing like the '93 team, unless you consider the matching changes in position players. The offense is more innovative now and the offensive players are better (Montana was washed up when he arrived here. Allen was still good, but not the player he had been in the past). The defense isn't nearly as good (something I agree with Pack about) but not as bad as some think, although the secondary still worries me. To say the defense "sucks" is nowhere near true. Sure, we don't have Smith or Thomas, but I think our D-Line is better overall now than it was then, and depth at LB now is better than the one-man-show we had then (even though I hate Bush). Also, the division is much stronger now than it was in '93 (Seattle was still a doormat, San Diego was competent but nowhere near their '95 form, Denver had issues and the Faiders were their typical underachieving selves). Because of that, I will hesitate to claim the '01 version division champs. I will also hesitate to rip on them, since I, and everyone else, haven't seen them take a snap, have no idea what cuts will be made at training camp and who will be the true starters. MM ~~Taking a wait and see approach. __________________ ChiefsPlanet -- n. The place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.
Posts: 4,687

06-19-2001, 02:04 PM	#10
Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan I am Number Six Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Columbia, MD, USA Casino cash: $2009000	While the fan in me would like to believe that the Chiefs will walk away with the Division Championship, the Conference Championship and the Super Bowl this year, the realist in me says, not this year. :( However, to think that the team will be improved from last year is a very achievable goal. <b> I will not allow anyone to pin me into stating that unless we get to the Conference Championship game that the current coaching staff is worthless.</b> There're are too many questions and variables. However, unlike Chuck, I'm not going to predict a 6-10 season. I'd say 9-7 is not unrealistic in DV's first season. I'd say the Chiefs make a serious run at the playoffs in 2002 and that we're serious contenders in 2003, barring unforseen injuries and off-season mishaps. I think this season start a tad slow, but build to a very satisfying conclusion as the players and coaching staff all get to know one another. I think a very solid nucleus of a young team is being developed and with the proper tutalige, the Chiefs are going to once again be a force to be dealt with in the AFC West and beyond. (and personally, I don't let Ken get to me. Course, the fact that I have him on ignore might have something to do with it :p ) __________________ One of the lowest PPD of any of the original members of the Planet . . . and proud of it. My web site My writer's page
Posts: 6,564

06-19-2001, 02:35 PM	#11
AustinChief Administrator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Austin Casino cash: $2709112	The difference is DEFENSE... if our current defense proves itself as capable as our D from the early-mid 90s... then making it to the Division Championship is not far fetched at all... Though, I think that it will be a year or two before we get the defense back in shape... --Kyle
Posts: 19,494

06-19-2001, 02:37 PM	#12
KCTitus Archivist Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ethernet Casino cash: $9902732	MCF: gotta love that ignore feature... __________________ Anything you post on this BB can and will be used against you...
Posts: 26,192

06-19-2001, 02:42 PM	#13
Mark M What time is it? Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: You tell me ... Casino cash: $9884900	Crap!! I forgot about the ignore feature! Thanks for reminding me! :D :D :D Sorry Ken ... won't be able top respond to your intelligent and well-thought-out posts! :rolleyes: MM ~~Changing his profile ASAP!! __________________ ChiefsPlanet -- n. The place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.
Posts: 4,687

06-19-2001, 02:44 PM	#14
Mark M What time is it? Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: You tell me ... Casino cash: $9884900	Well ... what do you know. No more Kenny! :D :D :D :D MM ~~Would like to thank Kyle for making this possible __________________ ChiefsPlanet -- n. The place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.
Posts: 4,687

06-19-2001, 02:44 PM	#15
HC_Chief That's just f***in' stupid Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: suburbia Casino cash: $3687107	GODAMMIT! I wrote a lengthy response and the damn server 'farted' when I hit the post button. When I hit 'back' on my browser, all text = gone. GRRRRRRRRR :mad: :mad: :mad: __________________ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
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