***OFFICIAL*** 2013 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

From Bernie's column:

People have asked me why we’re not more emotional,” Matheny said in his office after Sunday’s game. “They say that we look subdued, always intense. That our actions are methodical, robotic at times. That’s what got us here. This isn’t the time to change it.”

It’s hard to argue with the manager’s assessment. The Cardinals finished with 97 victories, most by a Cards team since 2005, and tied with Boston for No. 1 in the majors this year.


Their 54-27 showing at Busch Stadium matches the 1985 team for the best single-season home winning percentage (.667) by the Cardinals since 1944.

A postseason theme has emerged, and it echoes the mantra that surfaced before the start of 2013: remember the fall of 2012. Remember falling to San Francisco in the NLCS.


The Cardinals’ veterans still haven’t forgotten. They still aren’t over it. It’s why Matheny resists GM John Mozeliak’s urgings to smile and put on a happier face.


Here's the most impressive aspect of the Cardinals' division championship: they prevailed over two other outstanding teams, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.



The 97-win Cardinals were better this year (regular season) than they were in 2011, when they won 90 games, and 2012, when they won 88.
Here are a few numbers that help put the Cardinals' Central title and No. 1 NL seed in perspective:



* Since MLB switched to a three-division format in each league in 1994, this was only the sixth time that a division had three 90-plus win teams. St. Louis won 97, Pittsburgh 94, and Cincinnati 90.
* Since the format change, this was only the second time that an NL division had three 90-win teams. In 2002 the NL West had Arizona (98 wins), San Francisco (95) and Los Angeles (92).
* The 2013 Cardinals faced more esteemed and difficult competition at the top of the division than any of the division-winning teams managed by Tony La Russa.

The Pirates were hardly pushovers; the Cardinals had to work like mad and kick in with a strong finish to put the division away, and didn't clinch until Game No. 160.



The Cardinals went 9-10 against Pittsburgh this season and were 11-8 vs. Cincinnati.


The Cardinals won only three of 10 games at PNC Park in Pittsburgh and split the 10 games at Cincinnati. The Cardinals were 6-3 against both teams at Busch Stadium.


The Cardinals (1st), Pirates (3rd) and Reds (5th) ranked among the top five in wins in the NL. The three teams were among the top 11 in wins in MLB. All three teams finished in the top five in the majors for best overall ERA, and each were in the top five MLB for best starting-pitching ERA.


The original purpose to this piece was to point out that the Cardinals managed to finish with the league's best record while competing in a division that had three 90-win teams for only the second time in the last 19 years of National League baseball.



The Cardinals really earned this.
Thanks for reading ...
— Bernie

[O.city]

Trade the pitcher most in the organization feel has the most upside and best stuff for a 31 year old ss who is .5 better WAR player than you already have? Yeah, I'm calling bullshit. If Martinez is going, package him, Wong and Wacha together and go get a difference maker.

You could add a secondary piece to that and go get cliff lee if your deadest on improving the rotation or a ss like Tulo

[Jewish Rabbi]

Originally Posted by O.city

Trade the pitcher most in the organization feel has the most upside and best stuff for a 31 year old ss who is .5 better WAR player than you already have? Yeah, I'm calling bullshit. If Martinez is going, package him, Wong and Wacha together and go get a difference maker.

You could add a secondary piece to that and go get cliff lee if your deadest on improving the rotation or a ss like Tulo

Why would you trade your two best pitching prospects for anyone? Your takes are just awful.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

He isn't a minor upgrade. His offense is way better. Even if he won't hit for power, he has more speed than Kozma. Plus, their defense is pretty even.

Ramirez has 75 wRC+ this year. That's terrible. Kozma's is 60.

Yes, he's quite a bit better, but it's still ****ing horrific.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by O.city

Trade the pitcher most in the organization feel has the most upside and best stuff for a 31 year old ss who is .5 better WAR player than you already have? Yeah, I'm calling bullshit. If Martinez is going, package him, Wong and Wacha together and go get a difference maker.

You could add a secondary piece to that and go get cliff lee if your deadest on improving the rotation or a ss like Tulo

Those three players likely project to 8-10 WAR combined per year. You'd better be getting Tulo AND someone else for that.

[Pepe Silvia]

Alexei Ramirez was a pretty solid shortstop a few years back but hes sucked balls this year. I know he never set the world on fire but what happened he wasn't that bad of a player?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

Alexei Ramirez was a pretty solid shortstop a few years back but hes sucked balls this year. I know he never set the world on fire but what happened he wasn't that bad of a player?

When baseball players are on the wrong side of thirty and aren't pumping themselves full of more junk than The Guardian they start to suck. Holliday, Pujols, et. al.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi

Why would you trade your two best pitching prospects for anyone? Your takes are just awful.

Because in the end they are just prospects at this point and if you have the chance to win a WS (like we do this year) sometimes you gotta make a move. I'm all about the future, but look at the nationals this year. Think they're glad the shut Strasburg down last year?


At this point, Wacha is a 3 or more likely 4 or 5 starter, he's massively overrated here.

And you also have to look at the fact that not everyone is going to turn out to be what they profile as. Yes, the cardinals are as good as anyone at developing players but knowing that, wouldn't you be more inclined to give them a chance to develop lesser known players while having high level guys in the majors?

[O.city]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Those three players likely project to 8-10 WAR combined per year. You'd better be getting Tulo AND someone else for that.

That's probably true, I was just using that as an example.

If te Rockies would make that's be and throw in a de la rosa ( just an example no idea if they would) you make said move 11 times out of 10

[Pepe Silvia]

Originally Posted by O.city

Because in the end they are just prospects at this point and if you have the chance to win a WS (like we do this year) sometimes you gotta make a move. I'm all about the future, but look at the nationals this year. Think they're glad the shut Strasburg down last year?


At this point, Wacha is a 3 or more likely 4 or 5 starter, he's massively overrated here.

And you also have to look at the fact that not everyone is going to turn out to be what they profile as. Yes, the cardinals are as good as anyone at developing players but knowing that, wouldn't you be more inclined to give them a chance to develop lesser known players while having high level guys in the majors?

I LMFAO when they shut him down last year. WTF was the point in having a stud phenom like that if you're not going to pitch him when it matters most? Were they ****ing serious?

[O.city]

Prospects are great for many reasons. They're cheap, they give you a major pipeline if talent to your club if you do it right, which we do, and they can also be used to go get known commodities to get you over the hump or flat make you te best team in baseball

[Pepe Silvia]

How the **** is Francisco Liriano doing so good this year, didn't his arm fall off in Minnesota?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

He isn't a minor upgrade. His offense is way better. Even if he won't hit for power, he has more speed than Kozma. Plus, their defense is pretty even.

From Bernie

Let's take a look at this nonsense, shall we?



Ramirez soon will turn 32.


He's a nice shortstop, but ...



Defensively Pete Kozma is a better shortstop.
Here are the latest rankings culled from Bill James Online...


Defensive Runs Saved:
Ramirez ... 4 runs saved, 11th among MLB shortstops.
Kozma ... 5 runs saved, 6th among shortstops.



John Dewan's Plus-Minus Ratings:
Ramirez ... +1, including a minus 1 on ground balls.
Kozma ... + 7, including a plus 11 on ground balls.



OK, what about offense?


Isn't Ramirez an offensive upgrade over Kozma?


Yes, but only to a point. Since the start of last season, Ramirez has a .295 onbase percentage and a .360 slugging percentage. He can steal some bases, but that isn't a part of the Cardinals' playbook. Nor should it be.
Basically Ramirez is less awful offensively than Kozma.
Which is hardly an endorsement.



Especially when we consider the Ramirez contract obligations.
Ramirez is owed about $2.5 million (maybe closer to $3 million) for the rest of this season.



Ramirez will make $9.5 million guaranteed in 2014, $10 million guaranteed in 2015, and has a team option for $10 million in 2016. The club can buy out the option for $1 million.



Even if you wipe out the option year, Ramirez is owed between $22 million and $23 million guaranteed.


So why would the Cardinals take on that salary — AND surrender one of their best pitching prospects — for a relatively minor offensive upgrade at shortstop?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

How the **** is Francisco Liriano doing so good this year, didn't his arm fall off in Minnesota?

His throwing a two seamer a lot more than a four seamer, which took his fastball from ungodly awful to a touch below mediocre. He's also throwing the hell out of his slider, which is one of the better pitches in baseball.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Damn, Gast needs shoulder surgery. Well, it was nice knowing you, John.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Damn, Gast needs shoulder surgery. Well, it was nice knowing you, John.

And that is another reason I'm not dead set on not moving prospects.