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Old 03-09-2017, 11:23 AM  
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Paul Ryan is a superstar

He's giving a good presentation on GOP efforts to repeal and replace Obamacare right now. It's amazing that there are members of the House (notably members of the freedom caucus) who don't understand the Senate concept of reconciliation. The freedom caucus, Rand "grandstand" Paul, and the most moderate senators had better not screw this up. Donald Trump needs to be prepared to hold their feet to the fire.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:38 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Dems are engaged...right? **** you cannot be this stupid.
You are the one that posted they are trying to fix Obamacare. They aren't fixing it they are getting rid of it and replacing it with something worse. Brillant.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:10 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
This attitude will have democrats back in power in no time.
Not according to this last election. This hardline attitude is exactly what "We the People" voted for and because guys like you worship at the alter of bi-partisanship(within the party-hardliners vs RINOs) at all costs actually cost us dearly getting Obama elected with a super majority that sadly gave us now govt healthcare that we now can never retract but hopefully remove enough teeth to where it will not hurt us as people "until" another Marxist Dem is elected. What don't you get about selling out "We the People"? There is no room for give at all anymore because we have gotten to the point of no return now that Barrycare will always be with us. Guys like you gave us Bush I, Dole,McCain,Romney and all you guys do is LOSE!! Why? Because RINOs aren't committed to conservative principles thus the base stays home. Not this time though and couldn't afford to because bi-partisan BS got our country in a serious pickle to the point that Trump(outsider gets elected). RINOs are only committed to "appearances and their back pocket" and "We the People" decided to clean house so much so that Trump got elected. RINOs,Marxist Dems, and the Marxist Media got Trump nominated and then elected plain and simple because RINOs speak out both sides of their mouths, appeasing conservatives with words but betraying in actions.

You really still don't get it patt!! Nothing personal here but you really don't.
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Last edited by Chiefshrink; 03-09-2017 at 09:28 PM..
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:38 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Pagan View Post
I agree that fixing the cost of insurance should be a priority and Obamacare didn't tackle that. Neither does the R plan.

But even if Congress could take on the Health Care industry and squeeze costs, I don't think it is reasonable to think that health care cost can drop to the point where somebody making not much more than minimum wage could afford it without help.

One reason (not the only one, mind you) costs have gone up is because we can do so much more. From hip replacements, to organ transplant, to "routine" heart surgery. (This is a good thing!) You aren't going to be able to provide that to people in their 50's for a couple of hundred dollars a month.

Worker productivity has been trending upward for decades but wages adjusted for inflation is now flat or falling. This society is wealthy enough to provide basic care for all its citizens. All of its citizens do not make enough to pay the market rate themselves.

Huge tax for the rich isn't the way to do it.
Almost everyone (except for the most extreme libertarians**) would agree with that. The disagreement would come in defining what constitutes basic care.

-------

**Edit: and people who don't understand what they read
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:44 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You actually call for prices to be "fixed?" That's price controls right out of Marx's Communist Manifesto. When did that ever work? It didn't work in the Soviet Union and it will not work now.



That's not what fiscal conservatives actually mean when they talk about aiding costs with market mechanisms like competition as opposed to outright fixing costs.



Actually that has made many procedures more affordable, relegating some of them to outpatient services. We have so much more technology that is far less invasive, uses a tiny incision and people can leave the hospitals much sooner. Most of it courtesy from what remains as free-market capitalism in this country. Such tech advances will decline if you literally "fix" prices. The Soviets had crap healthcare. Europe has used a lot of old tech. Well, at least when I was there this was the case. Had to stay in the hospital longer for what is an outpatient procedure here.



Normally, outside of govt intervention in markets, worker productivity causes a decline in prices. We are not "wealthy enough provide basic care for all its citizens. " Doing that requires a much higher tax rate, which takes more money out of the economy for businesses and jobs to be created. If health insurance is too expensive, the left has little problem passing the expensive costs onto others as the ACA did.

You're injecting a moral argument based on sympathy though and much opinion over economic realities. This is not an economic argument. Sympathy isn't going to help the problem.



Nor is what you want to do. The ONLY thing that would help rising costs is repealing every mandate and getting the govt out of the health markets altogether except for fraud and enforcing contracts. You're asking for too much from govt. NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING they have promised to be more affordable, how much a new safety net will cost has ever come to fruition. Just take one look at each of them and our national debt. You are arguing for socialism—an OLD idea that has failed. Time for something entirely new. Freedom actually works. Not a post about entitlement mentality.
He didn't say anything about price controls. He may be for them, but "fixing healthcare costs" didn't mean setting price controls, it meant addressing the problem of rising costs in some way.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:49 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
You cannot "fix the cost of insurance". Thats stupid. Insurance cost is relative to risk of a claim. Get real.
I think you're reading too much into his statement.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:51 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I'll wait to see how the CBO grades it and how the pubs are going to pay for it.

I have a bad feeling it won't be any better than the shit program now in place.
I predict you won't like what they tell us.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:57 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Sometimes you say things that are crazier than anything Taco, pete or BEP puts out.
Do you think Frank Marshall Davis had Barack Obama in mind when he famously said, "He was my favorite hotdog, until he graduated from high school and left for Occidental."
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:02 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
Not according to this last election. This hardline attitude is exactly what "We the People" voted for and because guys like you worship at the alter of bi-partisanship(within the party-hardliners vs RINOs) at all costs actually cost us dearly getting Obama elected with a super majority that sadly gave us now govt healthcare that we now can never retract but hopefully remove enough teeth to where it will not hurt us as people "until" another Marxist Dem is elected. What don't you get about selling out "We the People"? There is no room for give at all anymore because we have gotten to the point of no return now that Barrycare will always be with us. Guys like you gave us Bush I, Dole,McCain,Romney and all you guys do is LOSE!! Why? Because RINOs aren't committed to conservative principles thus the base stays home. Not this time though and couldn't afford to because bi-partisan BS got our country in a serious pickle to the point that Trump(outsider gets elected). RINOs are only committed to "appearances and their back pocket" and "We the People" decided to clean house so much so that Trump got elected. RINOs,Marxist Dems, and the Marxist Media got Trump nominated and then elected plain and simple because RINOs speak out both sides of their mouths, appeasing conservatives with words but betraying in actions.

You really still don't get it patt!! Nothing personal here but you really don't.
I think you're delusional, both about me and about what will happen if the GOP fails at healthcare reform.
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:02 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I think you're reading too much into his statement.
Correct

Poorly phrased on my part.
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:05 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
Not according to this last election. This hardline attitude is exactly what "We the People" voted for and because guys like you worship at the alter of bi-partisanship(within the party-hardliners vs RINOs) at all costs actually cost us dearly getting Obama elected with a super majority that sadly gave us now govt healthcare that we now can never retract but hopefully remove enough teeth to where it will not hurt us as people "until" another Marxist Dem is elected. What don't you get about selling out "We the People"? There is no room for give at all anymore because we have gotten to the point of no return now that Barrycare will always be with us. Guys like you gave us Bush I, Dole,McCain,Romney and all you guys do is LOSE!! Why? Because RINOs aren't committed to conservative principles thus the base stays home. Not this time though and couldn't afford to because bi-partisan BS got our country in a serious pickle to the point that Trump(outsider gets elected). RINOs are only committed to "appearances and their back pocket" and "We the People" decided to clean house so much so that Trump got elected. RINOs,Marxist Dems, and the Marxist Media got Trump nominated and then elected plain and simple because RINOs speak out both sides of their mouths, appeasing conservatives with words but betraying in actions.

You really still don't get it patt!! Nothing personal here but you really don't.
All 26% of you. If you think that same 26% will cut it next election cycle, you're delusional. (Nevermind the vast majority of that 26% who will have gotten screwed so hard by T-Rump's idiotic policy initiatives.)
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:06 PM   #116
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All 26% of you. If you think that same 26% will cut it next election cycle, you're delusional. (Nevermind the vast majority of that 26% who will have gotten screwed so hard by T-Rump's idiotic policy initiatives.)
Once they're able to find jobs which will provide them insurance it could change.
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:09 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You actually call for prices to be "fixed?" That's price controls right out of Marx's Communist Manifesto. When did that ever work? It didn't work in the Soviet Union and it will not work now.



That's not what fiscal conservatives actually mean when they talk about aiding costs with market mechanisms like competition as opposed to outright fixing costs.



Actually that has made many procedures more affordable, relegating some of them to outpatient services. We have so much more technology that is far less invasive, uses a tiny incision and people can leave the hospitals much sooner. Most of it courtesy from what remains as free-market capitalism in this country. Such tech advances will decline if you literally "fix" prices. The Soviets had crap healthcare. Europe has used a lot of old tech. Well, at least when I was there this was the case. Had to stay in the hospital longer for what is an outpatient procedure here.



Normally, outside of govt intervention in markets, worker productivity causes a decline in prices. We are not "wealthy enough provide basic care for all its citizens. " Doing that requires a much higher tax rate, which takes more money out of the economy for businesses and jobs to be created. If health insurance is too expensive, the left has little problem passing the expensive costs onto others as the ACA did.

You're injecting a moral argument based on sympathy though and much opinion over economic realities. This is not an economic argument. Sympathy isn't going to help the problem.



Nor is what you want to do. The ONLY thing that would help rising costs is repealing every mandate and getting the govt out of the health markets altogether except for fraud and enforcing contracts. You're asking for too much from govt. NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING they have promised to be more affordable, how much a new safety net will cost has ever come to fruition. Just take one look at each of them and our national debt. You are arguing for socialism—an OLD idea that has failed. Time for something entirely new. Freedom actually works. Not a post about entitlement mentality.
You really have no idea how economics in healthcare functions. This isn't a car that you can go without, or a new pair of shoes you can't afford.

There are numerous examples of programs that save a ton of money by subsidizing preventative care instead of letting "the market" sort it out.

It has been proven time and again that if individuals do not have healthcare coverage or cannot afford co-pays, they will forego treatment, letting their illnesses fester. Then, once they become so critical that they have no other choice, they go to the hospital, wherein they rack up an astronomical bill that they will always agree to, because no price is too high when the alternative is death.

You see the consequences of this daily with preventable diseases that are re-emerging due to lack of adequate vaccination decreasing herd immunity. And that is by choice in spite of low cost. If someone does not have health insurance, they are much less likely to receive vaccinations. A vaccine that costs a few dollars can prevent thousands of dollars worth of associated costs in morbidity and mortality, not only for that person, but for others who they may infect.

A person that can't afford health insurance is not going to go in for routine check-ups, check-ups that can catch diseases like hypertension or the early stages of T2DM. Those can be treated with medications that are extremely cheap, but if a person is unaware of their illness, they aren't going to get them. And then, when they have a heart attack, stroke, or other acute exacerbation, the system again accrues thousands of dollars in costs for something that could have been prevented by subsidizing a few visits to their PCP.

Markets have proven that they alone cannot be trusted to ensure the safety of medications, as toxicities due to additives or contaminants have proven. For 20 years dietary supplements have not been regulated as drugs but as food, and consequently, they are among the least reputable items you can put in your body, because the market has failed miserably at weeding out charlatans selling products under false auspices.

And many things the government has promised to be affordable are more affordable, and you can see specific examples within healthcare. Medicare is a significantly more efficient program than private insurance that operates with far less administrative overhead (3% for Medicare vs. 15+% for private insurance, or about 10% for programs that Medicare outsourced to private companies).

And I hate to break it to you, but no hospital is going to opt for surgery that is more invasive unless it can be demonstrably proven to be both more cost effective and safer for the patient. Similarly, doctors aren't going to write you a prescription for Vancomycin when your bacterial illness can be treated with Penicillin-V. You are simply talking out of your ass.

And this country absolutely is wealthy enough to provide basic care for all its citizens. Literally every other industrialized country on Earth does it, and does it cheaper than we do, both on a per capita basis and as a percentage of GDP.

So, if you want to drive down costs with your market-oriented model, you are going to resign yourself to denying millions of people coverage due to the impact they would have on costs for everyone else. Then, insurers could provide cheaper coverage, as the only people they have to worry about insuring are healthy people. That will make healthcare cheaper for a very specific subset of people. It will also kill, not harm, but kill, millions of other people.
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:16 PM   #118
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:18 PM   #119
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Democrats weren't willing to compromise, you say? Bullshit. They started out with using the Heritage Foundation's proposal from the 90's that was tweaked and enacted by a Republican Governor - Mitt Romney.
Not only were they willing to compromise, they specifically kept tax rates (that would have enabled lower deductibles) lower than they wanted to on the wealthiest Americans
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:05 AM   #120
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Not only were they willing to compromise, they specifically kept tax rates (that would have enabled lower deductibles) lower than they wanted to on the wealthiest Americans
I know.

Unfortunately 1/2 the people who are in opposition don't know, and about 10% don't care, with the other 40% indifferent.

We seem to have an outlier of woefully uninformed and a slightly higher than average number of the don't care assholes.
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