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View Poll Results: State intervention tends to enable big buisiness at the expense of labor & consumers
True 13 54.17%
False 11 45.83%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-14-2010, 02:12 AM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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True or false: State intervention tends to enable big business at citizens expense

Just curious what the general feel across the board on this particular question is.


The real phrasing of the question is as follows (character space constraints):

True or False:
State intervention tends to enable big buisiness at the expense of labor and consumers.
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
That's an interesting and complex question. What's the answer? How has the median US worker faired under 100 years of progressivist governance?
I think your original question was equally interesting and complex. I think overall, the government actions and programs have contributed to a better USA than we had before. Has every move that has been made been a favorable one? By no means. But the effect of worker's rights, government funded/supported education, government funded science and technology, the federal highway system, support for the elderly, and a basic safety net for all American's has been such a net good for the economic condition of average Americans, that it covers a whole host of other missteps that have been made through the years.

If you take away SSI, medicare, the GI bill (laid the ground for higher ed for the average american), the federal HWY system, the moon race, and labor laws I think people are much worse off.

I think corporations are better off too.

It's not a zero sum game.
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:53 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It sounds to me like this is a round-about way of agreeing with Taco John. You're saying that in a perfect world he'd be wrong, but admitting that we don't live in a perfect world. The only place you differ is that you think utopia is attainable.
Or you can protect the ideals of representative government by regulating the influence of money on public policy.

Government does have a purpose. And one of those purposes is to protect the public good from the impositions of the most powerful. The only thing better for corporate interests than corrupted government is no government at all. Government is the tool that keeps powerful interests honest. Certainly, if those powerful special interests can't completely eliminate government they will do their damnedest to corrupt it.

But that speaks to our laws more than it does representative government. Change the laws so that those with the most money can't write the laws and we might be back in business.
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:10 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by orange View Post
TJ - How about some examples of "small governments" where "big business" doesn't run roughshod?

I could maybe list a couple of "small governments" where "big business" DID run roughshod, but you would just claim they weren't really small because the fact that "big business" ran things "proves" they were actually "big governments."

That's where the loading comes in.
Somalia...
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:12 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
So you voted wrong then. You should have voted "True."
I didn't vote because I think the question is manipulative and tries to lead to a biased conclusion in order to support a faulty premise. It's not as cut and dry as the question would suggest.

State intervention, per se, is not what favors big business. State intervention compelled by the undue influence of special interests is what favors big business. The problem is not government. The problem is undue influence.

Everyone here knows that one of my biggest concerns has always been that the legislative trend of the past 30 years has benefitted the corporate establishment at the expense of the citizenry. But it wasn't always that way. Or at least, good public policy had a fighting chance. Not anymore.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:09 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAChief View Post
Somalia...
Excellent choice, if I may say so!

Stateless in Somalia, and Loving It!


Look at that flourishing market!


Even the CIA factbook admits:

Quote:
"Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has managed to survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless services in most major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on the continent. In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange services have sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500 million and $1 billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market offers a variety of goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels continue to operate, and militias provide security."

Quote:
The second sentence, however, depicts Somalia as a lawless country in disorder. As for disorder, Van Notten quotes authorities to the effect that Somalia's telecommunications are the best in Africa, its herding economy is stronger than that of either of its neighbors, Kenya or Ethiopia, and that since the demise of the central government, the Somali shilling has become far more stable in world currency markets, while exports have quintupled.

As for Somalia being lawless, Van Notten, a Dutch lawyer who married into the Samaron Clan and lived the last dozen years of his life with them, specifically challenges that portrayal. He explains that Somalia is a country based on customary law. The traditional Somali system of law and politics, he contends, is capable of maintaining a peaceful society and guiding the Somalis to prosperity. Moreover, efforts to re-establish a central government or impose democracy on the people are incompatible with the customary law.
The killing and shooting we hear about on our news is really due to weak-to-invisible transitional government in Mogadishu ( which they like and do well under) will become a real government with actual power.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:10 PM   #66
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How about the early days of the American Republic? That's another good time. That is after the depression that followed the war which was financed via inflation.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:15 PM   #67
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Holy s*** that is some of the most pie-in-the-sky delusional stuff I have ever read.

That is hilarious.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:25 PM   #68
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Hong Kong Freest Economy in the World

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/hongkong

With business freedom at 98.7%

Looks like it slipped .3 percent though and some progressive ideas are filtering in. But it hasn't been wrecked yet. "Hong Kong’s competitive tax regime, respect for property rights, and flexible labor market, coupled with an educated and highly motivated workforce, have stimulated an innovative, prosperous economy. Hong Kong is one of the world’s leading financial and business centers, and its legal and regulatory framework for the financial sector is transparent and efficient. Business regulation is straightforward."

"Hong Kong’s effective tax rates are among the lowest in the world. Individuals are taxed either progressively, between 2 percent and 17 percent on income adjusted for deductions and allowances, or at a flat 15 percent of gross income, depending on which liability is lower. The top corporate income tax rate is 16.5 percent. "

"Total government expenditures, including consumption and transfer payments, are low. In the most recent year, government spending equaled 14.5 percent of GDP. Disciplined fiscal management has helped Hong Kong to weather the global downturn. The government has made efforts to maintain a balanced budget. State ownership is mostly limited to transportation."
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:26 PM   #69
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America has dropped to 8th Place

If I recall we were in 4th place a couple of years ago. We are are slipping. Even Switzlerland is ahead of us.

http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:30 PM   #70
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And Hong Kong has a high standard of living too.

Quote:
Hong Kong reverted to Chinese rule in 1997. During that year, Hong Kong experienced a major economic disruption. In the two decades since that time, Hong Kong has remained a vibrant economy with a relatively high standard of living.
http://www.sightseeing-china.com/a49...kong-today.cfm
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:35 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
If I recall we were in 4th place a couple of years ago. We are are slipping. Even Switzlerland is ahead of us.

http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx
"Even Switzerland"? Switzerland has always had a relatively open economy with low taxes. I assume that's what the Heritage foundation rates everyone on.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:50 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/hongkong

With business freedom at 98.7%

...

The next two lines after your quote:

"Even in an economy as free as Hong Kong’s, threats to freedom can arise. Though the introduction of competition legislation was postponed in April 2009, a minimum wage bill was introduced in June, with implementation forecast for late 2010 or early 2011."


Heritage considers a minimum wage a "threat to freedom."

It should come as no surprise to you that I am of the diametrically opposite opinion.

Frankly, their ratings are horse manure.

Are you ready to lower your family's income to $15,000 like most of the folks there in Capitalistparadise?



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Old 03-15-2010, 07:57 PM   #73
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And Hong Kong has a high standard of living too.
http://www.sightseeing-china.com/a49...kong-today.cfm
Do you ever even read what you post?
Whereas Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea all started out as low-cost, labor-intensive manufacturing bases, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea have all developed high-technology industries, whereas Hong Kong has become a services center for companies (foreign as well as those from Hong Kong) doing business in China. The structure of the economy has therefore changed dramatically over the past decade: the manufacturing sector contributed just 5% of GDP in 2001, compared with 14.4% in 1991, and in 2002 employed only 9% of the labor force. The manufacturing sector has been replaced by a rapidly expanded services sector. Wholesale, retail and import/export trades, and community, social, and personal services are Hong Kong's two largest services sectors in 2002 (The Economist, 2004).

With the government averse to regulation, Hong Kong has traditionally lacked the legislative and institutional measures that are used elsewhere to encourage competition. Partly because of this, there has been criticism that the domestic economy is monopolized by a few powerful local conglomerates. For instance, just two chains—Wellcome and Park 'n Shop—dominate the supermarket industry. These two firms are in turn owned by conglomerates, Jardine Matheson and Hutchison Whampoa respectively, which have a range of other interests in Hong Kong, owning, for example, major land developers.

psssst - don't tell Pat Buchanan:
The current economy is supported by the boost from Mainland tourism, the strengthening of the global economy, the advent of a new free trade zone between China and Hong Kong, as well as the associated improvement in domestic consumer sentiment (IMF Hong Kong Staff Visit, 2003).

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Old 03-15-2010, 09:22 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
"Even Switzerland"? Switzerland has always had a relatively open economy with low taxes. I assume that's what the Heritage foundation rates everyone on.
Yes, I know but it has actually slipped too, and due to more progressivism.
That compilation is being used by others such as liberal institutions like the NY Times, WSJ and wiki. And economists like Friedman and Cato used Hong Kong as an example. It's pretty accepted...and they show you what they used to arrive at it. So no, it's not just based on low tax rates, but regulation and positive non-interventionism. It's been rated the freest economy in the world for 15 years.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:24 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange View Post
The next two lines after your quote:

"Even in an economy as free as Hong Kong’s, threats to freedom can arise. Though the introduction of competition legislation was postponed in April 2009, a minimum wage bill was introduced in June, with implementation forecast for late 2010 or early 2011."


Heritage considers a minimum wage a "threat to freedom."

It should come as no surprise to you that I am of the diametrically opposite opinion.

Frankly, their ratings are horse manure.

Are you ready to lower your family's income to $15,000 like most of the folks there in Capitalistparadise?

Wingers new song: "Like Somalia. I want to be like Somalia."
You asked for an example of a free economy. I gave you one. That your values are different is another topic. I didn't expect you to agree. But it's been rated the freest for the past 15 years by a number of places and even the liberal NY Times cites the Heritage study—which is transparent in what they use for criteria. So getting a boost in tourism from the mainland is just a boost on top of what was considered a very free economy even back in the 80's. See my response to WoodDraw. That you consider it horse manure is just your opinion.

And I didn't say Somalia's govt/legal system was based on natural law which is what would allow them a system like ours. Somalia is undeveloped. Countries like that don't develop hi tech overnight. Still, the people do not want a strong central govt imposed on them. They are resisting it despite the progressives at the UN shoving it down their throats. If they want law based on custom's that's their right to their own determination. The conflict is caused by outsiders. They still have their own markets though.
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