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Old 04-15-2018, 08:28 PM  
Lex Luthor Lex Luthor is offline
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The people we disagree with are not our enemies

Liberals aren’t stupid. Conservatives aren’t racist. The people we disagree with are not our enemies

BY MARC A. THIESSEN

Washington Post Writers Group
March 21, 2018 08:30 PM
Updated March 21, 2018 08:30 PM

I’m a rock-ribbed conservative who wants Republicans to keep control of Congress. But I’m not unhappy that Republican state Rep. Rick Saccone appears to have lost the special election in Pennsylvania’s 18th Congressional District.

Why? Because he insulted my mother.

Trailing his Democratic opponent in a district President Donald Trump won by 20 points, but which still has more registered Democrats than Republicans, Saccone hit on a genius idea to turn out the vote: At a campaign rally just before voters went to the polls, he declared that liberals hate America and hate God. “I’ve talked to so many of these on the left,” he said. “And I tell you, many of them have a hatred for our country. … My wife and I saw it again today: They have a hatred for God.”

My mother is a liberal Democrat, and I can tell you: She does not hate America or God. Quite the opposite — she is one of the most patriotic people I know. She grew up in Nazi-occupied Poland, fought with the Polish underground, was taken to Germany as a prisoner of war, was liberated by Patton’s Army and moved to London. Eventually, she became a doctor and made her way to the United States, where she became a U.S. citizen.

There is no one prouder to be an American. When Poland held its first free elections in 1989, Polish Americans living in the United States were invited to vote. Many did so, but my mom refused. She loved the land of her birth, but she was an American citizen now and would not vote in a foreign election. When someone hears her thick Polish accent they often ask, “Where are you from?” She answers proudly: “New York City.”

She’s also a proud Democrat. We disagree about politics, but we both love America and want to make this country great. We just have different ideas about the best ways to do it.

So when Saccone says liberals hate America, he’s talking about my mother. I take it personally. And you should, too.

Whether you are liberal, conservative or in between, I’ll bet that you have a loved one who disagrees with you about politics. It might be a sibling or a parent or a beloved cousin, aunt or uncle — or even your kids. We should not stand for politicians from either party who insult them or question their motives or their patriotism.

Too often, politicians on both the left and right do just that. We saw this recently when, during an event in India, Hillary Clinton insultingly claimed that Trump won the parts of the country that weren’t “moving forward.” She said those voters liked what she characterized as Trump’s message that “you know you didn’t like black people getting rights. You don’t like women, you know, getting jobs. You don’t want, you know, to see that Indian American succeeding more than you are.” If you have a loved one who didn’t vote for Clinton in 2016, you should be offended. I doubt the people you love are against civil rights, or women working, or people of color succeeding. They just thought Clinton was a terrible choice for president — an impression she confirmed with those comments.

We see it in the gun control debate that followed the Parkland, Fla., school shooting. Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy said that if you’re not in favor of immediate action on guns, “you’re an accomplice” to the Parkland killer. Seriously? Do you have a loved one who disagrees with you about gun control? Are they accomplices to mass murder? No, they just disagree that gun control is the solution.

The problem exists on both sides of the aisle, and it’s not just politicians. American Enterprise Institute President Arthur Brooks recalls how a few years ago he was giving a speech at a large conservative event. “I said that while my own views are center-right, I have no reason to believe progressives are stupid or evil,” he recalls. “An audience member countered, ‘You’re wrong: They are stupid and evil.’”

Progressives are not stupid and evil. Conservatives are not racists and misogynists. Our fellow Americans who disagree with us are not our enemies. They are our fellow Americans who differ with us. And we should not put up with politicians, on the left or right, who can’t seem to understand this.
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:38 PM   #16
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I don't remember if I've ever mentioned this before on this forum: I have an identical twin brother. He lives in another state. He is a very conservative Republican, and he is a Trump supporter.

We obviously have some very different political views. We simply agree not to talk politics very often. When we do, we stay polite and respectful. I don't call him a Trumptard, and he doesn't call me a Libtard.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not polite and respectful to the Trump supporters on this site. I will try to do better in that regard. I can't promise perfection, but I can promise that I will try. The article in the OP has inspired me.
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:12 PM   #17
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"Politics" weren't always this way. Used to be (and I am probably older than most of you) that the Republicans and the Democrats were two sides of the same coin. Back then - most politicians at least "claimed" that they were doing what they were doing for the betterment of the country. Whether or not that was true - remained to be seen.

Once cable news sort of "took over" - lines were drawn and anyone on the "other" side - regardless of party - suddenly became the "enemy". "Party" became more important than "country" and has been that way ever since. Damned shame, really.

Sort of reminds me of my time in the former Soviet Union. "Party" is essential for the good of the collective. The only "good" that came from that? It eventually ate itself and died.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:16 AM   #18
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The truth is that some of us are enemies.

It would be nice to think that our birth and existence on the same piece of land gives us divine or societal obligation not to be enemies, but history doesn't bear that out.

From the beginning, we were tribes, and that one aspect has kept civilization going up to now, with very admirable results. That will never change. Even with the advancement of technology, education and medicine, we still revert back to the familiar, and that's okay.

Just be aware of it, and don't go crazy with it.
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:19 AM   #19
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I've been living it all my life, except when people make generalizations I don't take ANY of them personally, left right or center. Instead I try to impress my individualistic worldview that removes the power from all generalizations.

But as to the demonization by generalization problem Theissen identifies, reliably Jordan Peterson is already ahead of the curve in pointing out an asymmetry that needs to be addressed.



Basically, even though the charges and recriminations are still hurled back and forth at every juncture, the right has had it's out of bounds defined, but the left has not defined their own pariahs yet. They haven't disclaimed those portions of their narrative that are too extreme.

I have no problem stating that racists, bigots, and fundamentalists are not part of my base. But rather than disclaim the radicals of their side, the left allows the radicals of their side to try to make the case that everyone who disagrees with them is a racist, bigot and fundamentalist. And they allow the identity politics and collectivists to run unchecked through the dialog.

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Old 04-16-2018, 05:13 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
I don't remember if I've ever mentioned this before on this forum: I have an identical twin brother. He lives in another state. He is a very conservative Republican, and he is a Trump supporter.

We obviously have some very different political views. We simply agree not to talk politics very often. When we do, we stay polite and respectful. I don't call him a Trumptard, and he doesn't call me a Libtard.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not polite and respectful to the Trump supporters on this site. I will try to do better in that regard. I can't promise perfection, but I can promise that I will try. The article in the OP has inspired me.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:46 AM   #21
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I agreed with the OP up to the point where it claims "liberals aren't stupid"
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:14 AM   #22
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The progressives have created this toxic environment and did so in the 8 Obama years because they felt they had all the gems in their sack. They knew 16 years would unfold and fundamental change would be imposed. They trampled moderate dems, independents and R’s in their Godless drive to divide the country.


When we read these op eds its clear they see the road ahead has changed. The effort failed when they allowed Hillary to force herself into the top spot. The power they had is gone and a new approach is in order. The “lets be nice and find ways to agree” must be viewed as a Trojan Horse, nothing but an attempt to gain advantage again.

The Progressive never stops. The goals are the same. And a wary nation must remain vigilant. The fox wants into the henhouse.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
I'll be the first to admit that I am not polite and respectful to the Trump supporters on this site. I will try to do better in that regard. I can't promise perfection, but I can promise that I will try. The article in the OP has inspired me.
Good advice- it will help you I'm sure.

IMHO when I first saw your posts here early on they were polite or strong disagreements.

Over time your tone and temperament have become much harsher......

I don't think you belong in the same bucket as some of the worst offenders or knuckleheads here from both sides.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:38 AM   #24
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I don't have an issue with most people, whatever their political leanings, but when people like BEP and Taco John start posting conspiracy bullshit/troll information I have a hard time not trying to be an ass to them. There are other people that do that here besides them but those two seem to be the biggest offenders.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:41 AM   #25
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The progressives have created this toxic environment and did so in the 8 Obama years because they felt they had all the gems in their sack.
You can be just as toxic when you call people mentally ill because of their position on an issue.

You're that fox in the henhouse, when it suits you.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:49 AM   #26
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I don't have an issue with most people, whatever their political leanings, but when people like BEP and Taco John start posting conspiracy bullshit/troll information I have a hard time not trying to be an ass to them. There are other people that do that here besides them but those two seem to be the biggest offenders.
It's only your opinion that it's troll information. I mean wtf is troll information anyway? A troll is someone who usually flames others using crazy, mentally ill, conspiracy theorist or troll etc. The aim is to make trouble for others. That's YOU!

The word conspiracy is misused by many today. Just because someone has an agenda doesn't make the whole thing a conspiracy. The term is a perjorative, most of the time, used to malign a position or a poster—not address it. If you think everything in politics or by our govt is done straight and honest, then you're part of the problem, not the person who is skeptical. Outside of that, you can look those things that I or Taco post instead of going off half-cocked to verify. But there is always going to be a trust issue with each of us on sources.

Thing is I see you as a troll. You rarely post substance or back up your position—you come in here primarily as a fly-by poster to take pot shots and flame because you can't deal with someone not in the mainstream.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:58 AM   #27
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"Politics" weren't always this way. Used to be (and I am probably older than most of you) that the Republicans and the Democrats were two sides of the same coin. Back then - most politicians at least "claimed" that they were doing what they were doing for the betterment of the country. Whether or not that was true - remained to be seen.

Once cable news sort of "took over" - lines were drawn and anyone on the "other" side - regardless of party - suddenly became the "enemy". "Party" became more important than "country" and has been that way ever since. Damned shame, really.

Sort of reminds me of my time in the former Soviet Union. "Party" is essential for the good of the collective. The only "good" that came from that? It eventually ate itself and died.
Only part I disagree with is "Politics" weren't always this way." It may be different from your time, especially when we only had 3 major networks. We have a lot more ways to check govt information—more than ever now. There's no excuse for just accepting what 3 major networks say anymore or even cable. All the media has been consolidated with few owners anyway.

You should check out the election season when Jefferson ran. It was blistering complete with sex charges. Palaces were rife with intrigue and there were murders for power, even in the Republic of Rome. I wouldn't say politics was ever a polite subject. Politics is warfare by other means.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:01 AM   #28
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Over time your tone and temperament have become much harsher......
This place does that to you over time. It's the environment that induces it, imo.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:17 AM   #29
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Pretty sure a lot of conservatives are racist as ****, tbh.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:22 AM   #30
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Pretty sure a lot of conservatives are racist as ****, tbh.
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