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Old 04-15-2018, 08:28 PM  
Lex Luthor Lex Luthor is offline
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The people we disagree with are not our enemies

Liberals aren’t stupid. Conservatives aren’t racist. The people we disagree with are not our enemies

BY MARC A. THIESSEN

Washington Post Writers Group
March 21, 2018 08:30 PM
Updated March 21, 2018 08:30 PM

I’m a rock-ribbed conservative who wants Republicans to keep control of Congress. But I’m not unhappy that Republican state Rep. Rick Saccone appears to have lost the special election in Pennsylvania’s 18th Congressional District.

Why? Because he insulted my mother.

Trailing his Democratic opponent in a district President Donald Trump won by 20 points, but which still has more registered Democrats than Republicans, Saccone hit on a genius idea to turn out the vote: At a campaign rally just before voters went to the polls, he declared that liberals hate America and hate God. “I’ve talked to so many of these on the left,” he said. “And I tell you, many of them have a hatred for our country. … My wife and I saw it again today: They have a hatred for God.”

My mother is a liberal Democrat, and I can tell you: She does not hate America or God. Quite the opposite — she is one of the most patriotic people I know. She grew up in Nazi-occupied Poland, fought with the Polish underground, was taken to Germany as a prisoner of war, was liberated by Patton’s Army and moved to London. Eventually, she became a doctor and made her way to the United States, where she became a U.S. citizen.

There is no one prouder to be an American. When Poland held its first free elections in 1989, Polish Americans living in the United States were invited to vote. Many did so, but my mom refused. She loved the land of her birth, but she was an American citizen now and would not vote in a foreign election. When someone hears her thick Polish accent they often ask, “Where are you from?” She answers proudly: “New York City.”

She’s also a proud Democrat. We disagree about politics, but we both love America and want to make this country great. We just have different ideas about the best ways to do it.

So when Saccone says liberals hate America, he’s talking about my mother. I take it personally. And you should, too.

Whether you are liberal, conservative or in between, I’ll bet that you have a loved one who disagrees with you about politics. It might be a sibling or a parent or a beloved cousin, aunt or uncle — or even your kids. We should not stand for politicians from either party who insult them or question their motives or their patriotism.

Too often, politicians on both the left and right do just that. We saw this recently when, during an event in India, Hillary Clinton insultingly claimed that Trump won the parts of the country that weren’t “moving forward.” She said those voters liked what she characterized as Trump’s message that “you know you didn’t like black people getting rights. You don’t like women, you know, getting jobs. You don’t want, you know, to see that Indian American succeeding more than you are.” If you have a loved one who didn’t vote for Clinton in 2016, you should be offended. I doubt the people you love are against civil rights, or women working, or people of color succeeding. They just thought Clinton was a terrible choice for president — an impression she confirmed with those comments.

We see it in the gun control debate that followed the Parkland, Fla., school shooting. Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy said that if you’re not in favor of immediate action on guns, “you’re an accomplice” to the Parkland killer. Seriously? Do you have a loved one who disagrees with you about gun control? Are they accomplices to mass murder? No, they just disagree that gun control is the solution.

The problem exists on both sides of the aisle, and it’s not just politicians. American Enterprise Institute President Arthur Brooks recalls how a few years ago he was giving a speech at a large conservative event. “I said that while my own views are center-right, I have no reason to believe progressives are stupid or evil,” he recalls. “An audience member countered, ‘You’re wrong: They are stupid and evil.’”

Progressives are not stupid and evil. Conservatives are not racists and misogynists. Our fellow Americans who disagree with us are not our enemies. They are our fellow Americans who differ with us. And we should not put up with politicians, on the left or right, who can’t seem to understand this.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:28 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
You can reject it, but that doesn't make it any less true.



Dog-whistle politics are very real and extremely effective, and what you're saying is more or less confirmation of my earlier point. Unless somebody is advocating for a white ethnos state or using racial slurs, you reject any claims of racist intent.

I'll go back to a classic example of dog whistle politics, something we may even have discussed in the past. Do you think there was any racist intent behind Trump's birther attacks on Obama?



It's important to nail down exactly what you're talking about here, so I'm going to ask who the 'purposeful left' is here and what things they are branding as racist that simply aren't.



By all means, tell me who specifically I should direct my disapproval towards on the left. Which well known figure or politician embodies these views? I can point to countless examples on the right who have large followings that say vile shit. Please, tell me the grounds on which I should be fighting the overreach of identity politics and who should be drawing my criticism.
Do you actually believe any of the narrative you’ve said out loud here?
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:32 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole, but again, if you'd like to actually point out some people on the far left with an audience that espouse the kind of views you think I should be denouncing, by all means.



Sure. I think it goes without saying that if you're not advocating for racist ideas you shouldn't be called a racist. Not everything that people say should be taken at face value though, either.
I don't think you have the mind reading skills to pull that off well, so I don't defer to your judgment. That's just you playing your part, consciously or not, in the effort to expand the definition of racism.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:34 PM   #123
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:40 PM   #124
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I don't think you have the mind reading skills to pull that off well, so I don't defer to your judgment. That's just you playing your part, consciously or not, in the effort to expand the definition of racism.
Expand the definition of racism past what? Using racial slurs and calling for segregation, right?

In that case, yes. And you should be, too.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:42 PM   #125
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All who voted for Mitt did so out of hate for colored men. /NJChiefsFan27

By logic

All who voted for Trump did so out of a hate for White grandmas

It is impossible to not vote for a progressive for any reason other than things.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:50 PM   #126
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
You have a future in fiction.

Alt-Right was a created term made up by the Progs. The attempt by the left to smear the moderates and Republicans as pure hate driven racists was the way they saw to deploy the minority voters to the polls...that failed. Just as their attempt to make the Dems the party of women...that failed.

Either you are trolling or you are a loon.
The alt-right isn't a term made up by liberals. Breibart proudly called themselves the 'platform for the alt-right', for example.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:51 PM   #127
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
All who voted for Mitt did so out of hate for colored men. /NJChiefsFan27

By logic

All who voted for Trump did so out of a hate for White grandmas

It is impossible to not vote for a progressive for any reason other than things.
This is what most refer to as a strawman. Get better at arguing on the internet please.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:55 PM   #128
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Liberals, the world over, are the enemy to truth, justice, and freedom. Just because they wrap their bullshit in some nice sounding lie doesn't mean they aren't the enemy.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:15 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
So who are they?
You should try watching a Project Veritas video or two.
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:08 AM   #130
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Just put him on iggy. It improves the experience here considerably.
You and bablee lee love throw temper tantrums if someone points out your dishonest bull shit.

"Why can't we have a circle jerk of self righteous and talk about how we are better the those generalizing liberals who do things worse than the right."
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:23 AM   #131
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"both sides are bad so vote republican"
You have referenced this many times now. I have re-read the thread and couldn't find anyone else that posted it. Can you quote the post/poster(s) that said this?
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:28 AM   #132
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:32 AM   #133
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You have referenced this many times now. I have re-read the thread and couldn't find anyone else that posted it. Can you quote the post/poster(s) that said this?
He thinks if he can shout his preferred reframing of the argument enough times it will take.
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:44 AM   #134
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Expand the definition of racism past what? Using racial slurs and calling for segregation, right?

In that case, yes. And you should be, too.
Expanding the definition beyond stereotypical judgments based on skin color.

Making the argument that philosophical differences between people of different skin color are secretly or implicitly based on skin color instead of the philosophical difference.

Making the argument that criticism of cultural and lifestyle decisions are bigotry and racism rather than criticism of DECISIONS.

Promoting the nonsense about microaggression and privilege instead of simply treating every individual as unique and deserving of respect.

Assuming as established that all instances of disparate impact or structural inequality are based in racial animus or some sense of supremacy.

Just to start.

It is morally wrong to attribute unfounded characteristics, propensities, abilities, etc. on the basis of skin color. This moral wrong is founded on the fact that skin color is something an individual has no control over, and is an artifact of the circumstances of birth.

It is not morally wrong in itself, or in so self-evident a manner, to criticize the decisions people make. This is part of the 'purposeful' left's aim to shift the moral currency in stating that racism is wrong into a broader proposition that minorities are immune from judgment or participating the social dialog [save as dispensers of wisdom] because their oppression is assumed and their shortcomings, wrong ideas, or ill-founded philosophies are excusable and indeed laudable as woke, or enlightened, or simply progressive.

In all, I best sum it up as treating each individual as a unique creation with a unique story, worthy of respect until such time as their own actions deprive them of that worth. Don't let the balance of history [personal or universal] persuade you to take shortcuts in your assessment of any individual by assuming they are like anyone else you've encountered before, whether that's by appearance, complexion, clothing, body language, grammar, etc.

Let the individual tell his or her own story. But once it's told, feel free to judge the story he or she has personally told you.

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Old 04-17-2018, 06:57 AM   #135
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by headsnap View Post
You have referenced this many times now. I have re-read the thread and couldn't find anyone else that posted it. Can you quote the post/poster(s) that said this?
Easy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
I've been living it all my life, except when people make generalizations I don't take ANY of them personally, left right or center. Instead I try to impress my individualistic worldview that removes the power from all generalizations.
Here Babble lee is standing on a soap box, lecturing us on his own self righteousness that he is against generalizations. This is him getting ready to demonstrate his own moral correctness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
But as to the demonization by generalization problem Theissen identifies, reliably Jordan Peterson is already ahead of the curve in pointing out an asymmetry that needs to be addressed.

Basically, even though the charges and recriminations are still hurled back and forth at every juncture, the right has had it's out of bounds defined, but the left has not defined their own pariahs yet. They haven't disclaimed those portions of their narrative that are too extreme.
Here babble lee is, despite claiming to be against generalizations, generalizing all the left.

He also goes "both sides do this thing, but the left is a lot worse than the right", which is just "both sides are bad so vote republican."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
I have no problem stating that racists, bigots, and fundamentalists are not part of my base. But rather than disclaim the radicals of their side, the left allows the radicals of their side to try to make the case that everyone who disagrees with them is a racist, bigot and fundamentalist. And they allow the identity politics and collectivists to run unchecked through the dialog.
There babble lee is, again, generalizing the left while going "yeah the right has a few bad apples, but let me tell you how the left is a lot worst" , or " both sides are bad so vote republican."

This is very easy to point out. Look for the "right does this, but the left does this worse" template.

Its a very standard and stereotypical virtue signaling from the right. Babble lee is expressing an opinion of his own moral correctness of his position by generalizing the left, something he likes to lecture others about.

He isn't the first and won't be the last. "Both sides are bad so vote republican" is one of the rights favorite argumentative and virtue signaling tools.

Here is another posters:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
I agree with this article mostly.

Among average people, we have more in common than we don't. The average Republican voter and, say, the union laborer who usually votes Democrat have most things in common. The Republican doesn't want the plant he works in to close down. The Democrat doesn't want to take the Repubican's guns. He's probably a sportsman too. The Republican isn't racist and the Democrat doesn't think he is one. The Democrat doesn't hate God and the Republican doesn't think he does. They both think immigration needs to be controlled and crime needs to go down and the environment needs to be protected and schools need to be better. They just have different ideas about the best way to do those things.

The problem is with the political class on the left. They DO want to take away the average guy's guns, they do attack religious freedom, and they DO think everyone is secretly racist even if they don't realize it. All these things that are caricatures when applied to average voters often do fit the politicians they're given to vote for. The stereotypes of Democrats aren't true of the average democrat, but they are true of people like Bernie Sanders and Maxine Waters and etc etc. No, you shouldn't think of average Democrats that way, but they also should put their foot down and say "No" when Democrat pols do these things, instead of continuing to vote for them.
"Both sides are bad but the problem is the left and people who don't stand up enough to the left so vote republican".

See, this is easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
On the right, we have seen that Americans have finally responded to decades of this browbeating from Washington, from the Media, from Academia, etc., about how terrible they are. They have responded in some effective ways - such as by rolling back the number of Democrat seats in state and federal legislatures. Some have responded in angry and negative ways, such as the alt-right. Of course, some people who feel they're oppressed are going to feel they should fight fire with fire. Doesn't make it right, but it is predictable. And so on the right, you have a very few people who really are Charlottesville types, but that stereotype - which the elites on the left try to apply to Republicans generally - also doesn't fit the average voter.
The right = Americans with a bit of victim playing.

Down play and hand wave away the problems on the right right after talking about how the problem is the left. Both sides are bad, but the democrats are worst, so vote republican.

Its the same virtue signaling of bablee lee.

"Look, I am being moderate, see, I said those racists are bad. So what If I also said the left does it worst and downplayed those racists as insignificant. Look at my self righteous and morally correct opinion!"

Nothing worse or a bigger part of the problem than a bunch of self righteous unaware idiots lecture others on the own false sense of moral correctness, doing exactly what the rant at others about."
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Loneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby PiscitelliLoneiguana 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitelli
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