Game of Thrones (spoiler-free zone)

[keg in kc]

A few have suggested it, might as well test the waters. The idea is to give people who haven't read the books a safe place to talk about the show.

A few quick ground rules:

• No Spoilers!!!!! for upcoming episodes.
• Larger Song of Ice and Fire discussion should be limited to the other thread although I think a tiny bit of book delving to fill in holes should be okay (example of this would be talking about Catelyn and her treatment of the wolves in the novel, which was alluded to on TV but never really made clear...)
• Everything that happened that week is fair game once an episode airs. So if you don't watch on Sunday night, I'd stay outta here until you do...

[Silock]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I would guess that most people posting here would just rather talk about the actual content of the show rather than nitpicking whether it has enough action or whether certain story arcs are moving fast enough.

We already have two GoT threads. Making a third focused on criticisms seems like overkill.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by RustShack

I have zero complaints about this show. Other than maybe they keep killing all the good people. But that's not enough action and diversity

Well, that's kinda the point. Whenever something pivotal is about to happen, the person gets killed.

Killing people off for the sake of "shock value" isn't inherently exciting. For some characters, it works really well. For others, it just gets to the point where it's not worth investing in the character because you know they're just going to get killed. And because many of the characters are so one dimensional, there isn't a ton of character development overall. Out of all of the characters they introduce, there are only a few who ever grow and change, but because there are so many, we get far less of their interesting story lines than we should. That's one reason everyone wants more Tyrion. Not only is Dinklage doing an amazing job with the acting, his character has actually gotten to develop. It makes the story more interesting when that happens. I'm just going to assume he's going to die at some point, and I'll be more okay with that because we've gotten to see real character growth from him. A character that is nothing more than an unchanging archetype is tedious and it's just not exciting when they die.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Originally Posted by Silock

Well, that's kinda the point. Whenever something pivotal is about to happen, the person gets killed.

Killing people off for the sake of "shock value" isn't inherently exciting. For some characters, it works really well. For others, it just gets to the point where it's not worth investing in the character because you know they're just going to get killed. And because many of the characters are so one dimensional, there isn't a ton of character development overall. Out of all of the characters they introduce, there are only a few who ever grow and change, but because there are so many, we get far less of their interesting story lines than we should. That's one reason everyone wants more Tyrion. Not only is Dinklage doing an amazing job with the acting, his character has actually gotten to develop. It makes the story more interesting when that happens. I'm just going to assume he's going to die at some point, and I'll be more okay with that because we've gotten to see real character growth from him. A character that is nothing more than an unchanging archetype is tedious and it's just not exciting when they die.

Now with 100 percent Peter Dinklage.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by Silock

Well, that's kinda the point. Whenever something pivotal is about to happen, the person gets killed.

Killing people off for the sake of "shock value" isn't inherently exciting. For some characters, it works really well. For others, it just gets to the point where it's not worth investing in the character because you know they're just going to get killed. And because many of the characters are so one dimensional, there isn't a ton of character development overall. Out of all of the characters they introduce, there are only a few who ever grow and change, but because there are so many, we get far less of their interesting story lines than we should. That's one reason everyone wants more Tyrion. Not only is Dinklage doing an amazing job with the acting, his character has actually gotten to develop. It makes the story more interesting when that happens. I'm just going to assume he's going to die at some point, and I'll be more okay with that because we've gotten to see real character growth from him. A character that is nothing more than an unchanging archetype is tedious and it's just not exciting when they die.

You watched the show, you don't like it, we found one. Congrats, stop watching. The show is what it is, which is pretty great and pretty popular.

Don't worry, The Salon likes to shit on the show as well. You're in good company, Salon company.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by Silock

Well, that's kinda the point. Whenever something pivotal is about to happen, the person gets killed.

Killing people off for the sake of "shock value" isn't inherently exciting. For some characters, it works really well. For others, it just gets to the point where it's not worth investing in the character because you know they're just going to get killed. And because many of the characters are so one dimensional, there isn't a ton of character development overall. Out of all of the characters they introduce, there are only a few who ever grow and change, but because there are so many, we get far less of their interesting story lines than we should. That's one reason everyone wants more Tyrion. Not only is Dinklage doing an amazing job with the acting, his character has actually gotten to develop. It makes the story more interesting when that happens. I'm just going to assume he's going to die at some point, and I'll be more okay with that because we've gotten to see real character growth from him. A character that is nothing more than an unchanging archetype is tedious and it's just not exciting when they die.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I wasn't going to bother arguing with you, but this take just seems so far off base to me that I decided to respond a little.

Most of GRRM's characters are anything but one dimensional, so that just seems like a bizarre criticism to me. Part of what GRRM does so well is establish a character in your mind (i.e. Jaime throwing Bran off the tower in episode 1) and then proceed to change your perception of the character over time (i.e. most people now like Jaime).

Joffrey was one of the few one dimensional characters in the show, granted, but he was hardly tedious or boring, he was really fun to hate. Just a weird take away to me I guess as I think GRRM loves to create characters that are gray rather than black or white. Even that bitch Cersei loves her kids.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I wasn't going to bother arguing with you, but this take just seems so far off base to me that I decided to respond a little.

Most of GRRM's characters are anything but one dimensional, so that just seems like a bizarre criticism to me. Part of what GRRM does so well is establish a character in your mind (i.e. Jaime throwing Bran off the tower in episode 1) and then proceed to change your perception of the character over time (i.e. most people now like Jaime).

Joffrey was one of the few one dimensional characters in the show, granted, but he was hardly tedious or boring, he was really fun to hate. Just a weird take away to me I guess as I think GRRM loves to create characters that are gray rather than black or white. Even that bitch Cersei loves her kids.

Agreed.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

You watched the show, you don't like it

AGAIN, NOPE. I do like it. I expect more from a "great" show.

[ModSocks]

Originally Posted by Silock

Well, that's kinda the point. Whenever something pivotal is about to happen, the person gets killed.

Killing people off for the sake of "shock value" isn't inherently exciting. For some characters, it works really well. For others, it just gets to the point where it's not worth investing in the character because you know they're just going to get killed. And because many of the characters are so one dimensional, there isn't a ton of character development overall. Out of all of the characters they introduce, there are only a few who ever grow and change, but because there are so many, we get far less of their interesting story lines than we should. That's one reason everyone wants more Tyrion. Not only is Dinklage doing an amazing job with the acting, his character has actually gotten to develop. It makes the story more interesting when that happens. I'm just going to assume he's going to die at some point, and I'll be more okay with that because we've gotten to see real character growth from him. A character that is nothing more than an unchanging archetype is tedious and it's just not exciting when they die.

Mmmm.....imma have to heavily disagree with you on this. The character development in this show is top notch and rivaled by no one. If you haven't read the books then you don't know who is going to die.

Take Joffrey for example. His character development was outstanding. He starts the show as just a boy, eventual heir to the throne. Over time, he gets worse and worse and ends up being an uncontrolable murderous tyrant. Fans of the show unanimously developed an authentic hatred for his character and his death was shocking.

You don't get that kind of response out of a character unless it's development was good.

[ModSocks]

Ah i see Hawk beat me to it.

Well then, Daenerys is another character with good development. She's gone from a pawn in her brother's game, to the innocent and ****able wife of a warlord, to the liberator of slaves.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Most of GRRM's characters are anything but one dimensional, so that just seems like a bizarre criticism to me. Part of what GRRM does so well is establish a character in your mind (i.e. Jaime throwing Bran off the tower in episode 1) and then proceed to change your perception of the character over time (i.e. most people now like Jaime).

Joffrey was one of the few one dimensional characters in the show, granted, but he was hardly tedious or boring, he was really fun to hate. Just a weird take away to me I guess as I think GRRM loves to create characters that are gray rather than black or white. Even that bitch Cersei loves her kids.

SOME of the characters aren't one dimensional, and I said as much earlier. And those characters are the ones we end up really caring about. And they deserve more screen time. Jaime, Tyrion, Daenarys -- these are the examples that the rest of the major characters should follow (in terms of how they're written). You can get away with some characters that never show any development, such as Joffrey, but not a whole show filled with them.

Tywin is always a ruthless dick, nothing changes. Cersei may love her kids, but she's just an angry, spiteful person, and that never changes. Has she ever done a scene without scowling? Little Finger is a manipulator, never changing. Olenna is just like Tywin, old and manipulative. Caitlyn Stark, a meddling old nag who only makes things worse whenever she intervenes. Rob Stark, the valiant hero! Margaery plays her role well, but does she ever have a thought in her brain that didn't come from her grandmother? Stannis Baratheon, a crazy ass dude seduced by a crazy ass witch (nothing changing here). Ramsey is another Joffrey, only less influential, and easier to dismiss. Brienne, strong woman with unwavering principles. Ygritte, a strong woman with a tender side. Yawn. The list goes on. None of these characters ever really develop or behave any differently than you've ever expected them to behave since they were introduced. Sometimes that works. But when you fill an entire story with them, it doesn't.

Look, give me MORE Jaime. I want to see how the Kingslayer deals with becoming left handed and losing his power. I LOVED watching Tyrion go from the fantasy equivalent of an uncaring trust fund baby to someone with a small amount of power actually protecting people and trying to make a difference. Danaerys growing into her role, actually changing from an overshadowed little girl into a liberator of people and commander of men. THAT is interesting. Give me more of THAT. Creating a dynamic and then changing it. It's this change and growth that makes these characters the favorites on the show. It's for good reason.

Of course, some characters are a little in-between that. Maybe Bron will finally do something out of the goodness of his heart instead of the love of money. Maybe Clegane actually grows to like Arya. I don't know.

I'm not saying every character has to be a dynamic character with lots of personal growth. It doesn't have to be that way. I just want less predictability in how the characters are going to act.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Mmmm.....imma have to heavily disagree with you on this. The character development in this show is top notch and rivaled by no one. If you haven't read the books then you don't know who is going to die.

Take Joffrey for example. His character development was outstanding. He starts the show as just a boy, eventual heir to the throne. Over time, he gets worse and worse and ends up being an uncontrolable murderous tyrant. Fans of the show unanimously developed an authentic hatred for his character and his death was shocking.

You don't get that kind of response out of a character unless it's development was good.

I totally disagree. That kid was always ****ed up, and it was apparent from day 1. Gives no ****s when Bran is injured. Tortures that little kid and slashes them with the sword. When Arya defends the kid, he gets violent toward her, and she's only saved by her wolf. It was always apparent that kid was a bad seed. I don't think his character had any base changes. We didn't know just how ruthless and cruel he was going to be in the first season, but it was readily apparent that this kid was ****ed in the head.

Now, he's an example of a one-dimensional character that WORKS. It is possible for that to happen. Everybody hates the Emperor in Star Wars, and it's because he's a dick. Villains lend themselves more toward one-dimensionality than other characters, although they don't always have to be so (Darth Vader).

Point is, it's OKAY to have some one-dimensional characters. It works sometimes when it's done to good effect. Joffrey was done to good effect, and it was helped that the acting was top-notch.

[keg in kc]

You need a few one-dimensional characters so they can die and we can all cheer.

[KC_Connection]

Again, that just comes off as another specious complaint to me. It's true that several of the secondary characters are fairly one dimensional and fit into traditional archetypes, but this show is very unique in that there are so many characters in this world. Even if there is something in the source material that they could use in this regard, there just isn't the time available to commit to developing many of them. They barely have enough time to focus on the primary ones at all.

If we're talking about the show's main characters (or basically the book's POV characters), they pretty much all fit what you seem to be looking for. Tyrion, Jaime, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Theon, Davos, and Samwell are all fascinating, multi-dimensional characters who have changed significantly as the show has gone on (some to a greater extent than others). When you look at them, I just don't see this as a problem with GoT at all.

[Nirvana58]

Originally Posted by Silock

SOME of the characters aren't one dimensional, and I said as much earlier. And those characters are the ones we end up really caring about. And they deserve more screen time. Jaime, Tyrion, Daenarys -- these are the examples that the rest of the major characters should follow (in terms of how they're written). You can get away with some characters that never show any development, such as Joffrey, but not a whole show filled with them.

Tywin is always a ruthless dick, nothing changes. Cersei may love her kids, but she's just an angry, spiteful person, and that never changes. Has she ever done a scene without scowling? Little Finger is a manipulator, never changing. Olenna is just like Tywin, old and manipulative. Caitlyn Stark, a meddling old nag who only makes things worse whenever she intervenes. Rob Stark, the valiant hero! Margaery plays her role well, but does she ever have a thought in her brain that didn't come from her grandmother? Stannis Baratheon, a crazy ass dude seduced by a crazy ass witch (nothing changing here). Ramsey is another Joffrey, only less influential, and easier to dismiss. Brienne, strong woman with unwavering principles. Ygritte, a strong woman with a tender side. Yawn. The list goes on. None of these characters ever really develop or behave any differently than you've ever expected them to behave since they were introduced. Sometimes that works. But when you fill an entire story with them, it doesn't.

Look, give me MORE Jaime. I want to see how the Kingslayer deals with becoming left handed and losing his power. I LOVED watching Tyrion go from the fantasy equivalent of an uncaring trust fund baby to someone with a small amount of power actually protecting people and trying to make a difference. Danaerys growing into her role, actually changing from an overshadowed little girl into a liberator of people and commander of men. THAT is interesting. Give me more of THAT. Creating a dynamic and then changing it. It's this change and growth that makes these characters the favorites on the show. It's for good reason.

Of course, some characters are a little in-between that. Maybe Bron will finally do something out of the goodness of his heart instead of the love of money. Maybe Clegane actually grows to like Arya. I don't know.

I'm not saying every character has to be a dynamic character with lots of personal growth. It doesn't have to be that way. I just want less predictability in how the characters are going to act.

I would say if you want more depth from the characters you should really read the books. There is only so much they can show you on a TV show. When you read Chapters from Cersei/Caitlyn point of view it can really add to there character and different dimensions of it.

[NewChief]

Here's the deal:

There are too many characters and plots to truly focus on the development of all of them while still moving things forward in the context of a television show. This is the fault of the source material and attempting to adapt it to the screen, not of the show. Silock's criticisms are valid in some ways, but invalid in that he's criticizing something beyond the control of the creators of the show.

That being said, the creators of the show have done a damned fine job of adapting the source material.