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Old 07-22-2019, 12:19 AM  
El Lobo Gordo El Lobo Gordo is offline
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A moral question about minimum wage

Suppose the minimum wage is increased to $15 dollars an hour. No jobs are lost, but the higher wage entices more desirable workers into the workforce. Stay at home mom's whose infants and toddlers have grown to school age kids, who wouldn't re-enter the workforce for $7.25, are now applying for jobs that pay $15. Some employers are favoring these older, experienced workers over young inexperienced people just entering the work force.

When does it become immoral to price someone out of the labor market?
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:57 AM   #2
scho63 scho63 is offline
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A NATIONAL minimum wage of $15 is stupid as hell.

They could easily have a three-tiered minimum wage based on Cost of Living Indexes.

$15 in New York City is very different than $15 in Centreville, Illinois.

Example:
New York City, NY---Tier 1---$15/hr
Indianapolis,IN---Tier 2---$12.50/hr
Wheeling,WV---Tier 3---$10/hr

Centreville, Illinois is the poorest town in the United States, with a town median household income of $16,715. New Square, New York has the highest poverty and SNAP recipiency rates of any town in the United States — 70% of the population lives in poverty.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:39 AM   #3
chiefzilla1501 chiefzilla1501 is offline
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I don't think it works that way. Minimum wage in general is bad for the poor because it means less opportunity. And the timing is so horrifically bad when you consider that a rising minimum wage just increases a companys incentive to automate the job away. I know yangs proposal on universal basic income is considered socialism but I still think at some point we will have automated away so many jobs that some kind of social welfare is unavoidable. Rather than minimum wage, I'd rather see us investing in infrastructure and training. That's welfare that at least has some kind of ROI.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:40 AM   #4
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It's not exactly a moral question. It either works or it does not work.

It's moral to leftists.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scho63 View Post
A NATIONAL minimum wage of $15 is stupid as hell.

They could easily have a three-tiered minimum wage based on Cost of Living Indexes.

$15 in New York City is very different than $15 in Centreville, Illinois.

Example:
New York City, NY---Tier 1---$15/hr
Indianapolis,IN---Tier 2---$12.50/hr
Wheeling,WV---Tier 3---$10/hr

Centreville, Illinois is the poorest town in the United States, with a town median household income of $16,715. New Square, New York has the highest poverty and SNAP recipiency rates of any town in the United States — 70% of the population lives in poverty.
I was curious about this so I looked up New Square and it's a completely Hasidic Village so its not really a good indicator of poverty. It would be like using a Mennonite community for an income measurement.

But yea I agree a national minimum wage is really outdated in concept, way too much variation in cost of living.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:50 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I don't think it works that way. Minimum wage in general is bad for the poor because it means less opportunity. And the timing is so horrifically bad when you consider that a rising minimum wage just increases a companys incentive to automate the job away. I know yangs proposal on universal basic income is considered socialism but I still think at some point we will have automated away so many jobs that some kind of social welfare is unavoidable. Rather than minimum wage, I'd rather see us investing in infrastructure and training. That's welfare that at least has some kind of ROI.
1) Automation is coming and is never a reason to not raise the minimum wage. That's just fallacy.

2)Minimum wage does not mean less opportunity. Companies hire to meet demand for their product, not because of pay. Its exactly why the gloom and doom conservatives bleat about the minimum wage never comes true. If your company needs 3 people to meet demand, that doesn't change when minimum wage goes up.

3) There isn't much better ROI on paying employees a living wage.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:52 AM   #7
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post
But yea I agree a national minimum wage is really outdated in concept, way too much variation in cost of living.
There is nothing at all wrong with a national floor for wages, because higher cost of living areas can locally raise theirs. And $15 is about where a national wage floor needs to be, in any state.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:01 AM   #8
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Oh great, a blue hive drone has hit another thread. With all his DNC talking points in tow.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:03 AM   #9
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scho63 View Post
A NATIONAL minimum wage of $15 is stupid as hell.

They could easily have a three-tiered minimum wage based on Cost of Living Indexes.

$15 in New York City is very different than $15 in Centreville, Illinois.

Example:
New York City, NY---Tier 1---$15/hr
Indianapolis,IN---Tier 2---$12.50/hr
Wheeling,WV---Tier 3---$10/hr

Centreville, Illinois is the poorest town in the United States, with a town median household income of $16,715. New Square, New York has the highest poverty and SNAP recipiency rates of any town in the United States — 70% of the population lives in poverty.
I agree that a one size all solution is impractical, though I still support the policy in principle. But ideally, the actual number would be local to your state. I think it's also wise to phase in these changes over a couple of years, but it's also important to put in language that allows for the minimum wage to raise annually to keep pace with inflation.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:03 AM   #10
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneidiot View Post
1) Automation is coming and is never a reason to not raise the minimum wage. That's just fallacy.

2)Minimum wage does not mean less opportunity. Companies hire to meet demand for their product, not because of pay. Its exactly why the gloom and doom conservatives bleat about the minimum wage never comes true. If your company needs 3 people to meet demand, that doesn't change when minimum wage goes up.

3) There isn't much better ROI on paying employees a living wage.
damn you are dumb!

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in 2008 when the economy crashed I was working as a Graphic Design Production manager for magazine that was specific weekly publications in 24 cities. Before the crash we were working with 24 designers(employees), one for each city, after the crash we had to let 12 designers to spread the work, giving each designer the responsibility of two cities. Through the necessity of making the bottom line, we discovered we could efficiently do work of 24 with just 12 employees.

Now as the owner of a new bike shop, if the $15 minimum wage were to pass here, I would have to come in early or stay later to build bikes for the floor instead of hiring the high school kid to do it. It wouldn't be a big deal for me to spend the extra hours there(I love doing it), but at $10 an hour it's worth it to have the extra person there, not the case at $15.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:14 AM   #12
ClevelandBronco ClevelandBronco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
I agree that a one size all solution is impractical, though I still support the policy in principle. But ideally, the actual number would be local to your state. I think it's also wise to phase in these changes over a couple of years, but it's also important to put in language that allows for the minimum wage to raise annually to keep pace with inflation.
It doesn’t even work at the state level. Aspen ain’t Denver, and Denver ain’t Las Animas.

Pitkin County, CO – Per capita income: $64,381
Denver County, CO – Per capita income: $30,806
Bent County, CO – Per capita income: $16,505

2010 census numbers, but it’s unlikely that the disparity has evaporated in the decade since. Relying on various market forces working together with minimal intervention is the only way to make the math come close to making sense.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:20 AM   #13
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by headsnap View Post
damn you are dumb!

https://www.facesof15.com/

Oh, cool, a doom and gloom website bleating the very same things always bleated about the minimum wage that never comes true.

Here is the dirty little truth. Any company that blames the minimum wage for going under are looking for excuses for their own mismanagement. Minimum wage increases affect everyone equally. That means your competitors are facing the same labor costs increase. Actual, well run companies don't go under when both they and their competitors increase minimum wage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headsnap View Post
in 2008 when the economy crashed I was working as a Graphic Design Production manager for magazine that was specific weekly publications in 24 cities. Before the crash we were working with 24 designers(employees), one for each city, after the crash we had to let 12 designers to spread the work, giving each designer the responsibility of two cities. Through the necessity of making the bottom line, we discovered we could efficiently do work of 24 with just 12 employees.

Now as the owner of a new bike shop, if the $15 minimum wage were to pass here, I would have to come in early or stay later to build bikes for the floor instead of hiring the high school kid to do it. It wouldn't be a big deal for me to spend the extra hours there(I love doing it), but at $10 an hour it's worth it to have the extra person there, not the case at $15.
Wait, you mean during a down turn in the economy, a company lost business and had to downsize? And that sometimes Company managers and owners aren't actually the gods conservative make them out to be and often run inefficient operations that can find ways to slim down costs, including payroll?

Wow, cutting edge stuff there. (And none of it about the minimum wage).

If $640 a month is make or break to you, I hope you don't have any unforeseen bad luck. Sounds like you aren't prepared for any even small increase it costs.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:21 AM   #14
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
It doesn’t even work at the state level. Aspen ain’t Denver, and Denver ain’t Las Animas.

Pitkin County, CO – Per capita income: $64,381
Denver County, CO – Per capita income: $30,806
Bent County, CO – Per capita income: $16,505

2010 census numbers, but it’s unlikely that the disparity has evaporated in the decade since. Relying on various market forces working together with minimal intervention is the only way to make the math come close to making sense.
Great thing about the national minimum wage is that localities can increase their local minimum* over the national wage floor! Cool, eh?

*offer not valid in republican held states that pass laws outlawing local cities from raising their minimum wage
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:24 AM   #15
El Lobo Gordo El Lobo Gordo is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I don't think it works that way. Minimum wage in general is bad for the poor because it means less opportunity. And the timing is so horrifically bad when you consider that a rising minimum wage just increases a companys incentive to automate the job away. I know yangs proposal on universal basic income is considered socialism but I still think at some point we will have automated away so many jobs that some kind of social welfare is unavoidable. Rather than minimum wage, I'd rather see us investing in infrastructure and training. That's welfare that at least has some kind of ROI.
Prevailing wage, the precursor to minimum wage, was implemented to stop black work gangs coming north and under cutting white labor. If you are even a little racist, why hire a black laborer if you have to pay him the same wages as a white one? In my opinion it is immoral to pass legislation which prevents some people from being able to sell their labor.

An ex-convict has a right to sell his labor at a price the market will bear. A high functioning down syndrome person has a right to sell her labor at a price to the market will bear. If statutory minimum wages prevent such people from finding jobs, by making their labor "too expensive", just as prevailing wages once prevented blacks from finding jobs in the north, isn't that immoral?
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