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Old 05-25-2018, 08:50 AM  
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This is Why Those of Us Who Loved Reagan, Spurn Trump

I'll put the heart of this in the post, the rest is at the link:

This guy NAILS it...

http://theweek.com/articles/774976/t...balist-revival

Trump's tribalist revival
Damon Linker
May 25, 2018

....the Republican Party under Reagan affirmed its own version of patriotic idealism. Rather than telling the left to get out of the country if they didn't love it as it is, Reagan described an America perpetually shining as a light of liberty in the world, opening a space for individuals, families, and businesses to thrive at home while also serving as a beacon for hope to oppressed people everywhere.

Americans didn't need to choose between loving and leaving the country. Instead, Reagan talked about a country that was infinitely worthy of love and invited all Americans to embrace it.

Many took him up on the offer. In this respect, Reagan recaptured and transformed the idealism that fueled the first two decades of the Cold War....

....Then, in the wake of interminable wars and a crippling financial crisis, it curdled into polarized factionalism.

Into that factionalism plunged Donald Trump, reverting to the language of tribalism, talking in angry terms about the country as an armed camp in need of walls to protect it from dangerous outsiders and conducting domestic politics as an ongoing exercise in dividing the country into antagonistic groups of friends and enemies. Like Wallace reborn for the 21st century and given all the amplification of the Oval Office and a Twitter account, Trump rails against anyone who would dare suggest that the country needs to aspire to be anything more than it already is — or once was, before its pre-existing greatness was tarnished by them....

....There's no telling how many Americans will end up finding this mode of "love it or leave it" patriotism appealing — or how ugly American politics will become, after two and a half (or six and a half) more years of presidential encouragement.
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Old 05-26-2018, 09:23 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
HCF's post is the genesis of this strand of the thread. You responded to him.
The infatuation with Socialism is the topic. Tax rates are only half of the equation when it comes to leveling, if that much. Spending is at least equally important. The entire redistributive system is involved.



You definitely have some history to brush up on. Yes the 28% rates were fairly short-lived. That's because it took Reagan until '86 to achieve them and when GHWBush took office in 89, he promptly went back on his 'read my lips' promise and raised top rates.

But that's irrelevant. If you're going to invoke Reagan's name when harkening to tax rates of the past, the only acceptable top marginal rate is 28%. It's clear that Reagan wasn't satisfied with a 50% top marginal rate. He continued to pursue his goal of a flatter tax until he finally achieved a grand compromise with Congressional democrats in 1986. He probably would have preferred an even lower rate, but he had to compromise because the democrats owned Congress.
Kotter is still Kotter. Starts a thread trying to prove a point and look smart, ends up looking just as confused as ever.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:21 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
Agreed. After the Reagan tax cuts, things were going extremely well with the economy, and the only problem was that the federal deficit that was increasing every year. George H. W. Bush raised taxes slightly in the late 1980s to address that issue, and Bill Clinton did the same in the 1990s. At that point things were just about as perfect as they could possibly be. The economy was booming, and THE DEFICIT WAS COMPLETELY ELIMINATED. This bears repeating. THE DEFICIT WAS COMPLETELY ELIMINATED. The government was actually running a ****ing SURPLUS, and the surplus was increasing each year that Clinton was President. The tax rates were set at the perfect rates in the late 1990s. Everything was working.

I know that sounds shocking with the trillion dollar deficits we have today, but it's true. The deficit was completely eliminated, the government was running a surplus during Clinton's second term, and that surplus was getting bigger and bigger each year.


Clinton sold us out and effectively shut down 57,000 factories in the name of bringing democracy to China(naive)..It bears repeating.

FIFTY SEVEN THOUSAND FACTORIES.

You pimp the Clintons on the reg.

You fool no one.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:02 PM   #123
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Jesus, Kotter by himself is embarrassing but layer on an assload of Lex stupid and it is off the rails.

They represent the reason clear thinking people of value must vote.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:46 PM   #124
Lex Luthor Lex Luthor is offline
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Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief View Post
Typical revisionist history leaving out the "contract with America", which I do give Clinton credit for jumping aboard (kicking and screaming), the dot.com bubble, and one of the longest peace times in history. They forget that the negligible Bush tax cuts actually increased revenue after the dot.com burst and 9/11. They also leave out the fact that the Dems and Obama continued these cuts during his term. The tax cuts passed this time were extremely negligible on the individual side, and the more important corporate cuts were needed to continue to keep jobs in the US and make us more competitive as we were one of the highest taxed countries in the industrialized world. It appears this tax cut will also increase revenues as we are seeing growth above the 2.3% needed to make this cut revenue neutral. WE HAVE A SPENDING PROBLEM, NOT A REVENUE PROBLEM. Most of our budget is tied up in entitlements and the Dems will demigod any reform to these systems, even if it doesn't effect those over the age of 50 because they care more about power than their country. Eventually we will be forced to have austerity cuts and it will not be pretty... but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good emotional story...
We had entitlements in the 1990s, and we had budget surpluses.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:47 PM   #125
Lex Luthor Lex Luthor is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Jesus, Kotter by himself is embarrassing but layer on an assload of Lex stupid and it is off the rails.

They represent the reason clear thinking people of value must vote.
I'm sorry that facts upset you.
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Old 05-27-2018, 08:17 AM   #126
IowaHawkeyeChief IowaHawkeyeChief is offline
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
We had entitlements in the 1990s, and we had budget surpluses.

What part of longest peacetime, dot.com bubble, Contract with American didn't you understand?
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Old 05-27-2018, 09:48 AM   #127
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Pres. Reagan colluded with House Speaker Tip O'neill in a massive increase in the wealth and power of the Washington D.C. city state while imposing trillions of dollars of debt and unfunded spending commitments on America's powerless posterity.

I'm glad I voted for Libertarian Ed Clark in 1980 and have voted for limited Constitutional government ever since.
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Old 05-27-2018, 02:08 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
HCF's post is the genesis of this strand of the thread. You responded to him.
The infatuation with Socialism is the topic. Tax rates are only half of the equation when it comes to leveling, if that much. Spending is at least equally important. The entire redistributive system is involved.

You definitely have some history to brush up on. Yes the 28% rates were fairly short-lived. That's because it took Reagan until '86 to achieve them and when GHWBush took office in 89, he promptly went back on his 'read my lips' promise and raised top rates.

But that's irrelevant. If you're going to invoke Reagan's name when harkening to tax rates of the past, the only acceptable top marginal rate is 28%. It's clear that Reagan wasn't satisfied with a 50% top marginal rate. He continued to pursue his goal of a flatter tax until he finally achieved a grand compromise with Congressional democrats in 1986. He probably would have preferred an even lower rate, but he had to compromise because the democrats owned Congress.
Invoking socialism is hyperbole and a deflection from reasonable discussions of fiscal reform. Yes, tax rates are only half of the problem; unfortunately, neither party seems willing to budge on the spending side at the moment. That is a discussion we will be forced into at some point, including entitlement reforms but also defense spending priorities as well. Nothing significant will be achieved without addressing both sides.

I referred to Reagan era tax rates, not specifically the 28% rate. H.W. reneged on his "promise," in part, because the 28% rate was not working as advertised. Since 1987, the top marginal rate has not risen above 40% (not 50%.) Generally, those brackets have served us well. Tweaking them in times of economic difficulty as in 2001 and 2008 made sense. Lowering them further during growing economic times (2017) will only worsen the deficit and debt.

My hope is that we will live to see adults take back Washington at some point (both dems and reps,) so we can finally address both responsible taxing and more responsible spending. One thing is clear; it won't be in the next 2-3 yrs.
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"There’s not a liberal America and a conservative America. There’s the United States of America. There’s not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America....We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States....”
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Old 05-27-2018, 03:26 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Invoking socialism is hyperbole and a deflection from reasonable discussions of fiscal reform. Yes, tax rates are only half of the problem; unfortunately, neither party seems willing to budge on the spending side at the moment. That is a discussion we will be forced into at some point, including entitlement reforms but also defense spending priorities as well. Nothing significant will be achieved without addressing both sides.

I referred to Reagan era tax rates, not specifically the 28% rate. H.W. reneged on his "promise," in part, because the 28% rate was not working as advertised. Since 1987, the top marginal rate has not risen above 40% (not 50%.) Generally, those brackets have served us well. Tweaking them in times of economic difficulty as in 2001 and 2008 made sense. Lowering them further during growing economic times (2017) will only worsen the deficit and debt. My hope is that we will live to see adults take back Washington at some point (both dems and reps,) so we can finally address both responsible taxing and more responsible spending. One thing is clear; it won't be in the next 2-3 yrs.
Not true... If we have 2.3% growth the cuts are revenue neutral. The individual tax cuts were negligible, the corporate tax cuts were needed to compete with the rest of the industrialized world and the US having the highest corporate rate. AGAIN, we have a spending problem not a revenue problem.
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Old 05-27-2018, 03:45 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief View Post
Not true... If we have 2.3% growth the cuts are revenue neutral. The individual tax cuts were negligible, the corporate tax cuts were needed to compete with the rest of the industrialized world and the US having the highest corporate rate. AGAIN, we have a spending problem not a revenue problem.
I understand those were the talking points that were used to sell the bill. Time will tell, but I think it is mistaken to think that this will work long term. Yes, we have a spending problem that neither side seems willing to address, but without reasonable and responsible tax policy it will become an issue at some point....and a future President and Congress will be forced to bite the bullet.

FTR, it may take something close to across-the-board cuts (or at least reductions in growth) for there to be any political progress on it....because neither side seems willing to compromise. They would need to be coupled with a more responsible tax code to have any meaningful effect though. The devil will be in the details, but....it will not come anywhere close to the "Socialism" boogeyman the far right keeps trotting out. A mixed economy is not real Socialism--no matter how many times we repeat it. It's as ridiculous as the NRA's "they want to confiscate our weapons!" BS anytime anyone mentions anything about possible gun control laws.
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--Barrack Obama, 2004

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Old 05-27-2018, 06:53 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Invoking socialism is hyperbole and a deflection from reasonable discussions of fiscal reform. Yes, tax rates are only half of the problem; unfortunately, neither party seems willing to budge on the spending side at the moment. That is a discussion we will be forced into at some point, including entitlement reforms but also defense spending priorities as well. Nothing significant will be achieved without addressing both sides.

I referred to Reagan era tax rates, not specifically the 28% rate. H.W. reneged on his "promise," in part, because the 28% rate was not working as advertised. Since 1987, the top marginal rate has not risen above 40% (not 50%.) Generally, those brackets have served us well. Tweaking them in times of economic difficulty as in 2001 and 2008 made sense. Lowering them further during growing economic times (2017) will only worsen the deficit and debt.

My hope is that we will live to see adults take back Washington at some point (both dems and reps,) so we can finally address both responsible taxing and more responsible spending. One thing is clear; it won't be in the next 2-3 yrs.
I don’t agree with much of anything you’re saying in this thread and I consider your concept of “Reagan-era tax rates” strangely anti-reality and (probably intentionally) misleading. I’m getting bored with it though.
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Old 05-27-2018, 06:54 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Jesus, Kotter by himself is embarrassing but layer on an assload of Lex stupid and it is off the rails.

They represent the reason clear thinking people of value must vote.


As usual nothing to offer.
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Old 05-27-2018, 07:11 PM   #133
IowaHawkeyeChief IowaHawkeyeChief is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
I understand those were the talking points that were used to sell the bill. Time will tell, but I think it is mistaken to think that this will work long term. Yes, we have a spending problem that neither side seems willing to address, but without reasonable and responsible tax policy it will become an issue at some point....and a future President and Congress will be forced to bite the bullet.

FTR, it may take something close to across-the-board cuts (or at least reductions in growth) for there to be any political progress on it....because neither side seems willing to compromise. They would need to be coupled with a more responsible tax code to have any meaningful effect though. The devil will be in the details, but....it will not come anywhere close to the "Socialism" boogeyman the far right keeps trotting out. A mixed economy is not real Socialism--no matter how many times we repeat it. It's as ridiculous as the NRA's "they want to confiscate our weapons!" BS anytime anyone mentions anything about possible gun control laws.
These weren't talking points... They were the CBO's figures. 1.9% growth would create $1.5 trillion less in revenue. 2.3% revenue neutral. Each .4% increase in growth would increase revenue by $1.5 trillion. Growth, post crash, was pathetic for 8 years... We are off to a good start since the tax cuts...

The republicans have tried to present a cut in growth or stemming back the age for benefits for those under 50... The left portrays these options as the republicans pushing grandma in a wheelchair off a cliff... literally...
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:24 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief View Post
These weren't talking points... They were the CBO's figures. 1.9% growth would create $1.5 trillion less in revenue. 2.3% revenue neutral. Each .4% increase in growth would increase revenue by $1.5 trillion. Growth, post crash, was pathetic for 8 years... We are off to a good start since the tax cuts...

The republicans have tried to present a cut in growth or stemming back the age for benefits for those under 50... The left portrays these options as the republicans pushing grandma in a wheelchair off a cliff... literally...
You've been telling us this over and over for several months now. The problem is that there are multiple economic analysts who disagree. See the bolded sentences below.

Time will tell, and one of us will be paying off on a bet.

Quote:
The Senate’s Official Scorekeeper Says the Republican Tax Plan Would Add $1 Trillion to the Deficit

Senate Republicans’ $1.5 trillion tax cut would not pay for itself, according to a report released on Thursday by the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation. The report is a significant setback for Republicans, who have asserted that the tax cuts would grow the economy enough to cover the cost of the plan.

The report of the committee, Congress’s official tax scorekeeper, is the latest in a number of analyses that have found that the cuts could add a significant chunk to federal budget deficits, a move that would seem counter to years of Republican criticism of the deficits accumulated under the Obama administration.

In the Congressional Budget Office’s analysis of the Senate tax bill, the cuts would add $1.414 trillion to the deficit by 2027. That estimate does not include the amount that would be offset by the economic growth spurred by tax cuts.

Some Senate Republicans have expressed concerns about the bill’s deficits. Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee pushed to include in the final legislation some kind of safeguard that would trigger automatic tax increases or spending cuts if economic growth fails to cover the cost. But the provision was determined to run afoul of budget rules by the Senate parliamentarian on Thursday.

Will the Tax Cut Pay for Itself?

In a 2018 budget blueprint passed by Congress, lawmakers allowed enough room to lose about $1.5 trillion in revenue, but Republicans have said that the proposed tax legislation is designed to “pay for itself.”

They have argued that economic growth spurred by the cuts would make up for the difference in tax revenue, eventually reducing the deficits. But there is no consensus among economists about the amount of growth that would occur, and few estimate that the bill would generate enough economic growth to offset the drop in tax revenue.

To measure the macroeconomic effects of the Senate tax plan, economists have calculated estimates both with and without factoring in economic growth caused by the cuts. The results are produced using varying economic assumptions and show a wide range of estimated costs.

For the Senate version of the tax plan, estimates vary widely across the Joint Committee on Taxation, the University of Pennsylvania’s Penn Wharton Budget Model and the conservative Tax Foundation, whose models tend to assume large growth effects. But all three analyses show that even when factoring in economic growth, the tax bill would not pay for itself.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-deficits.html
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Old 05-28-2018, 08:17 AM   #135
IowaHawkeyeChief IowaHawkeyeChief is offline
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
You've been telling us this over and over for several months now. The problem is that there are multiple economic analysts who disagree. See the bolded sentences below.

Time will tell, and one of us will be paying off on a bet.



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-deficits.html
Joint Committee on Taxation assumes .9% growth over entire 10 years... Please They exactly don't have a great track record...

https://freedompartners.org/latest-n...ion-estimates/

or this one where the Penn Wharton Budget Model only assumes .1% increase in annual growth over the next 10 years...

Quote:
TPC and PWBM find that the House and Senate bills would add, at most, 0.1 percentage points to average annual economic growth over the next decade, and likely even less. These estimates are far below the 0.4 percentage point boost to annual growth that many Republicans claim the bills would generate.
https://www.google.com/search?source....0.EirZbZ7FU5A


So it comes down to growth. The new normal, accepted by many of these "policy centers" is the anemic 1.9% economic growth we've had for the previous decade, with no growth over 3% in any annual year. I believe we can and will do much better with the new corporate tax rates. We have a bet, remember? If it's .1% annual growth over the next few years you are going to win, if it's more than .4% over the next few years I do... I'm feeling fairly confident.
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Dave Lane's old avatar "SOON" answers the question on when TDS will have his family commit him to a mental institution....
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IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.IowaHawkeyeChief is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
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