An Opportunity to Define Liberalism - Page 3

JOhn · 12-21-2000, 10:58 PM

The Democratic Party bears little resemblance to the party my Grandfather was so proud of. Either America's definition of 'Liberal' has changed, or the Democratic Party has been hijacked by that movement ~ it's current leadership definitely resides far to the left of anything 'mainstream'.

The Liberals that control the Democratic Party are masters at defining their enemies in the public eye. With the unknowing(?) cooperation of many in the media, they have successfully labeled Conservatives as the 'Religious Right'. Republicans are 'mean spirited', 'intolerant', 'rich', and even 'racist'.

I would never suggest a strategy as bold (or as deceitful) as this for the Republicans, however, this next year will present some unique opportunities to redefine public perception. Considering the Republicans terrible track record in this regard, I would suggest they take heed.

George Bush has struck a chord with the American public when he talks about Compassionate Conservatism and bipartisanship. Most Americans want their government to function in a civil and cooperative manner. Yes, politics is conflict, but there is a general sense that people that really care about the country (Statesmen) will find a way to work together.
(cont.)

Ecto-I · 12-22-2000, 02:57 PM

KC Jones,

The alterior motive for the development of the Interstate Highway System was for quick and safe transportation of nuclear armaments, hence common overpasses having a 14-15' clearance, so we dont dent the missles.

------------------
Chief Justice Pants
(D)- Texas

[This message has been edited by Chief Red Pants (edited 12-22-2000).]

KCWolfman · 12-22-2000, 03:02 PM

The Interstate Highway System?

**Created as a part of the National Civil Defense Initiative... Defense of the Nation was paramount behind this system. The fact that it encourages easy movement to civilians was secondary to the ability to shift troops quickly.

The Marshall Plan?

Hmm, help defend Europe from Communism...yeah, that's a real liberal viewpoint. So liberal that Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Regan and Bush also supported Europe with grants, loans and armed forces.

The Internet?

Derived from ARPANet...a Department of Defense project and a few selected Universities. Expanded immensely due to the viability of business in the past few years. I'm not quite sure how liberals or conservatives had much to do with this...I'd say Capitalists of both sorts benefited here.

The Space Program
Tennessee Valley Authority

Both have already been adequately covered below.

Scientific Research

Oh, ok. Only liberal scientists do research?
C'mon here...I'm smelling hyperbole.

Public Universities?

Hmmm, Nope.... CMSU was a HUGELY conservative university up until the early 80s. Just because it's public doesn't mean it's liberal or conservative. And I don't think that ONLY liberals ever started a public college....

Personally, a lot of the stuff you list (Peace Corps, Social Security, Earned Income Credit (especially unnecessary if the Income Tax was either reasonable or repealed), Public Broadcasting) if it went away tomorrow, I'd never miss. I'd rather have that money that goes into FICA to invest in a method I choose. If others wanted to blow it and have nothing left for their retirement, well, shame on them.

[This message has been edited by Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan (edited 12-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan (edited 12-22-2000).]

12-22-2000, 03:05 PM

As an independent, I'd like to chime in here and inject something:

Liberlism and Conservatism go well beyond party affiliations...

Interstate Highway System - Eisenhower, Republican

Marshall Plan - a triumph of liberalism...try imperialism, who? Harry Truman, Democrat

Environmental Laws - first set of environmental laws passed in US...Teddy Roosevelt, Republican

Food safety laws - again, first passed by Teddy Roosevelt, Republican...

A Democrat dropped ordered the use of the first atomic bomb...

The epitomic Democrat (JFK) got us involved in Vietnam...

A Democrat (Andrew Jackson) ordered the Army to slaughter thousands of native Americans...

A Republican freed the slaves...

A Republican (Herbert Hoover) oversaw the beginning of the Great Depression, and a Democrat saved us from it...

Many good things have been done, both by Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives...

Characterizing Conservatives as hate-mongering warlords, catering to corporate whim is as off-base as labeling liberals as God-less socialist demagogues...

------------------
Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator

TEX · 12-22-2000, 03:17 PM

htis,

excellent rebuttal...happy holidays. heading back to the sticks?

------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyone who wouldn't cheat for a poke, doesn't want one bad enough, Augustus McCray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JOhn · 12-22-2000, 06:56 PM

I have a couple of questions for KC Jones, Cannibal, Brock, et al...

Was it ETHICAL for the Dogmatic Liberal Leadership of the Democratic party to p[urposely set out to label Republicans (in the public eye) as racist, mean spirited, uncaring, and against the poor?

Was it EFFECTIVE?

Was it ACCURRATE?

I will be very curious to compare your answers to these questions, to your comments here on this topic. I suspect it will be a dead give away for some of you.

Luz
if you're in that category, you'll probably want to ignore this post!!!...

TheFly · 12-22-2000, 07:40 PM

I've just got a min. so I'm gonna try to say as much in as little time as possible.

KCJones ACCURATELY notes that much good has been done by "liberals." While they were toying with their social experiments the conservatives have provided and PROTECTED the moral ground that has allowed us to live (somewhat) peacfully and productivly......It's called the Constitution.

God I love this country!

Unfortunately we find ourselves at a crossroads. The "liberals" (now, more accurately defined as socialists) find it neccessary, in order to carry their agenda any further, to attack and erode that moral guide (The Constitution.) This fact, in my view, is what the next major conflict that we experience will be fought over.

[This message has been edited by Kurt Surber (edited 12-22-2000).]

Ecto-I · 12-22-2000, 07:53 PM

Luz,

forgive me . . . I'm not, to any great depth, familiar with the key personnel noted on the rosters of the "extreme" right and "extreme" left. Now, we both know the true extremes dont reside within the Republican and Democratic parties . . . but you are refering to people of power and influence so they have to be part of this two-party system to have such influence.

could you drop some names for me?

------------------
Chief Justice Pants
(D)- Texas

Ecto-I · 12-22-2000, 08:00 PM

Luz,

You may find [b]post #339[/b] of the thread[b]"The Bush Presidency . . .Take Two"[/b] interesting . . . if not humerous

shakesthecat · 12-22-2000, 08:30 PM

Again, conservatives attempt to mislead. There is nothing in the definition of either conservatism or liberalism that has to do with national defense or military perparation. I know, you like to paint liberalism into a corner and set up some straw dummies so you can dismiss it as inherently evil and let your minds close to new ideas. I'm not going to let you. The point here is not whether an administartion or founder of these was considered a 'liberal' or a Republican (BTW Republicans were liberals in the last century and first third of this one). It's that these are the sort of big government projects or government regulations that have greatly benefited our society. The same sort of government intervention that conservatives rail against.

[b]Interstate Highway System[/b]
Proposed by Roosevelt and erected by Eisenhower (a Republican), the Interstate system was a big government project. As much as anything else in the post WWII era, the Interstate is responsible for tremendous economic growth, prosperity, and has spawned an entire culture. At the time it was originally proposed it was vehemently opposed by conservatives. I might point out that many of the conservatives here like to oppose all government plans as inherently evil and socialistic, so you can see why conservatives of that era opposed that idea.

[b]Marshall Plan[/b]
Foreign aid is a popular scapegoat these days. Those who would cut it (like Bush) should look back at the Marshall Plan, which rebuilt Europe, and is the major reason that Communism never made it past East Berlin.

cont.

shakesthecat · 12-22-2000, 08:31 PM

[b]Space Program[/b]
It was Kennedy who challenged us to make it to the moon, and it is under his and Johnson's administrations that the space program took off, with numerous benefits to American industry and peoples' standard of living, not to mention national pride. If you are reading this on a computer, thank the space program and the liberals who got it going.

[b]Internet[/b]
Not a liberal program per se, but rather a government one, which many equate as the same thing according to most conservatives on this board. The internet is a good example of what a government program can do when allowed to work.

[b]Scientific Research[/b]
Much of the great discoveries in science have come about through grants from the government. This is not to say that scientific genius depends on Washington, but the fact remains that pure science is expensive, and private industry will often not fund experiments which don't have a direct commercial potential. From Salk's polio vaccine to todays Human Genome Project and Hubble Space Telescope, the government is an important partner in scientific discovery. Conservatives would like to cut the research budget to almost nothing, because again it's another 'big government socialistic plan'.

shakesthecat · 12-22-2000, 08:34 PM

Kurt,

Are you proposing that Liberals didn't serve and fight for their country in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam? I certainly hope not, because that is clearly not the case.

shakesthecat · 12-22-2000, 08:38 PM

Luz,

I think you know by now I find the politicized vitriol spewed by both sides to be tasteless and contemptuous. Deceit has nothing to do with liberalism vs. conservative beliefs. How quaint of you to try changing the subject.

Ecto-I · 12-22-2000, 09:05 PM

KC Jones,

per posts #29,30 (note signature)

I'm neither a Conservative nor a Republican. I urge you to take a moment, be objective, and ponder a different outcome from turning points in our history had a Conservative occupied the office of the President, or any other significant office, when indeed a Liberal was there to make a decision.

The only thing that may have had been delayed would would be Lincoln's "freeing of the slaves" in my opinion ,but the claims of your Liberal web site stirs some personal curiosities . . . I strongly feel that some of the programs mentioned in it's list originate in the natural evolution of our world and this great country.

------------------
Chief Justice Pants
(D)- Texas

JOhn · 12-23-2000, 12:42 AM

KC Jones,

How can you accuse me of changing the subject when I created the subject in the first place?

It is you, sir, that will not address the issue.

Once again, in the hopes that you won't dodge it again, I ask you:

Was it ETHICAL for the Dogmatic Liberal Leadership of the Democratic party to purposely set out to label Republicans (in the public eye) as racist, mean spirited, uncaring, and against the poor?

Was it EFFECTIVE?

Was it ACCURRATE?

Stop avoiding the subject and answer the question.

Luz
if you give me a straight answer i'll show you why you're all wet on your 'big government projects' crusade...

JOhn · 12-23-2000, 01:01 AM

CRP,

You honor me with #339, and I want you to know that I always enjoy discussing things with you.

I guess that one of my points on this thread is that some of these extremists DO reside in the Democratic Party. As a matter of fact, they currently represent the leadership of that party.

I'm specifically reffering to Gephardt, Daschel, Wexman, Waters and other non-elected players such as the Rev Jackson and Patty Ireland.

These people do not represent mainstream thought, nor traditional Democratic Party values ~ they are fringe elements that in most cases are more concerned about holding onto power than they are the wellfare of the people.

A case could be made that Gephardt, Daschel, and Ireland are sincere (just misguided IMO), but even so, they are WAY OUT THERE to the left of anything this country has ever seen. Much like Nader, what they advocate borders on pure socialism.

The main point (and what KC Jones doesn't get) is that they are NOT traditional Democrasts or Traditional Liberals ~ he can spout history all he wants, but it has nothing to do with these guys.

I personally have no problem working hand in hand with Democrats or sincere liberals ~ but America needs to become aware of what these guys are. If the veil is lifted, Americans (Dems and Repubs) will not stand for them.

Luz
striving to be clear...

12-21-2000, 10:58 PM
JOhn El' Barto Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Cody, WY / Tucson AZ Casino cash: $9964900	The Democratic Party bears little resemblance to the party my Grandfather was so proud of. Either America's definition of 'Liberal' has changed, or the Democratic Party has been hijacked by that movement ~ it's current leadership definitely resides far to the left of anything 'mainstream'. The Liberals that control the Democratic Party are masters at defining their enemies in the public eye. With the unknowing(?) cooperation of many in the media, they have successfully labeled Conservatives as the 'Religious Right'. Republicans are 'mean spirited', 'intolerant', 'rich', and even 'racist'. I would never suggest a strategy as bold (or as deceitful) as this for the Republicans, however, this next year will present some unique opportunities to redefine public perception. Considering the Republicans terrible track record in this regard, I would suggest they take heed. George Bush has struck a chord with the American public when he talks about Compassionate Conservatism and bipartisanship. Most Americans want their government to function in a civil and cooperative manner. Yes, politics is conflict, but there is a general sense that people that really care about the country (Statesmen) will find a way to work together. (cont.)<P>
Posts: 25,529

12-22-2000, 02:57 PM	#31
Ecto-I The only way to Travel. Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: In the car Casino cash: $5353602	KC Jones, The alterior motive for the development of the Interstate Highway System was for quick and safe transportation of nuclear armaments, hence common overpasses having a 14-15' clearance, so we dont dent the missles. ------------------ Chief Justice Pants (D)- Texas [This message has been edited by Chief Red Pants (edited 12-22-2000).]
Posts: 2,919

12-22-2000, 03:02 PM	#32
KCWolfman Fall down 7 times, get up 8 Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	The Interstate Highway System? **Created as a part of the National Civil Defense Initiative... Defense of the Nation was paramount behind this system. The fact that it encourages easy movement to civilians was secondary to the ability to shift troops quickly. The Marshall Plan? Hmm, help defend Europe from Communism...yeah, that's a real liberal viewpoint. So liberal that Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Regan and Bush also supported Europe with grants, loans and armed forces. The Internet? Derived from ARPANet...a Department of Defense project and a few selected Universities. Expanded immensely due to the viability of business in the past few years. I'm not quite sure how liberals or conservatives had much to do with this...I'd say Capitalists of both sorts benefited here. The Space Program Tennessee Valley Authority Both have already been adequately covered below. Scientific Research Oh, ok. Only liberal scientists do research? C'mon here...I'm smelling hyperbole. Public Universities? Hmmm, Nope.... CMSU was a HUGELY conservative university up until the early 80s. Just because it's public doesn't mean it's liberal or conservative. And I don't think that ONLY liberals ever started a public college.... Personally, a lot of the stuff you list (Peace Corps, Social Security, Earned Income Credit (especially unnecessary if the Income Tax was either reasonable or repealed), Public Broadcasting) if it went away tomorrow, I'd never miss. I'd rather have that money that goes into FICA to invest in a method I choose. If others wanted to blow it and have nothing left for their retirement, well, shame on them. [This message has been edited by Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan (edited 12-22-2000).] [This message has been edited by Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan (edited 12-22-2000).]
Posts: 15,469

12-22-2000, 03:05 PM	#33
Guest Casino cash: $	As an independent, I'd like to chime in here and inject something: Liberlism and Conservatism go well beyond party affiliations... Interstate Highway System - Eisenhower, Republican Marshall Plan - a triumph of liberalism...try imperialism, who? Harry Truman, Democrat Environmental Laws - first set of environmental laws passed in US...Teddy Roosevelt, Republican Food safety laws - again, first passed by Teddy Roosevelt, Republican... A Democrat dropped ordered the use of the first atomic bomb... The epitomic Democrat (JFK) got us involved in Vietnam... A Democrat (Andrew Jackson) ordered the Army to slaughter thousands of native Americans... A Republican freed the slaves... A Republican (Herbert Hoover) oversaw the beginning of the Great Depression, and a Democrat saved us from it... Many good things have been done, both by Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives... Characterizing Conservatives as hate-mongering warlords, catering to corporate whim is as off-base as labeling liberals as God-less socialist demagogues... ------------------ Parker [b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>
Posts: n/a

12-22-2000, 03:17 PM	#34
TEX Out Gunning CP's Fandom Police Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Laguna Beach, CA Casino cash: $2393127	htis, excellent rebuttal...happy holidays. heading back to the sticks? ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>Anyone who wouldn't cheat for a poke, doesn't want one bad enough, Augustus McCray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Posts: 34,656

12-22-2000, 06:56 PM	#35
JOhn El' Barto Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Cody, WY / Tucson AZ Casino cash: $9964900	I have a couple of questions for KC Jones, Cannibal, Brock, et al... Was it ETHICAL for the Dogmatic Liberal Leadership of the Democratic party to p[urposely set out to label Republicans (in the public eye) as racist, mean spirited, uncaring, and against the poor? Was it EFFECTIVE? Was it ACCURRATE? I will be very curious to compare your answers to these questions, to your comments here on this topic. I suspect it will be a dead give away for some of you. Luz if you're in that category, you'll probably want to ignore this post!!!...<P>
Posts: 25,529

12-22-2000, 07:40 PM	#36
TheFly Never Regular... Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Irvine, CA, USA Casino cash: $10004900	I've just got a min. so I'm gonna try to say as much in as little time as possible. KCJones ACCURATELY notes that much good has been done by "liberals." While they were toying with their social experiments the conservatives have provided and PROTECTED the moral ground that has allowed us to live (somewhat) peacfully and productivly......It's called the Constitution. God I love this country! Unfortunately we find ourselves at a crossroads. The "liberals" (now, more accurately defined as socialists) find it neccessary, in order to carry their agenda any further, to attack and erode that moral guide (The Constitution.) This fact, in my view, is what the next major conflict that we experience will be fought over. [This message has been edited by Kurt Surber (edited 12-22-2000).]
Posts: 1,478

12-22-2000, 07:53 PM	#37
Ecto-I The only way to Travel. Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: In the car Casino cash: $5353602	Luz, forgive me . . . I'm not, to any great depth, familiar with the key personnel noted on the rosters of the "extreme" right and "extreme" left. Now, we both know the true extremes dont reside within the Republican and Democratic parties . . . but you are refering to people of power and influence so they have to be part of this two-party system to have such influence. could you drop some names for me? ------------------ Chief Justice Pants (D)- Texas
Posts: 2,919

12-22-2000, 08:00 PM	#38
Ecto-I The only way to Travel. Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: In the car Casino cash: $5353602	Luz, You may find [b]post #339[/b] of the thread[b]"The Bush Presidency . . .Take Two"[/b] interesting . . . if not humerous
Posts: 2,919

12-22-2000, 08:30 PM	#39
shakesthecat Veteran Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: IA Casino cash: $4313833	Again, conservatives attempt to mislead. There is nothing in the definition of either conservatism or liberalism that has to do with national defense or military perparation. I know, you like to paint liberalism into a corner and set up some straw dummies so you can dismiss it as inherently evil and let your minds close to new ideas. I'm not going to let you. The point here is not whether an administartion or founder of these was considered a 'liberal' or a Republican (BTW Republicans were liberals in the last century and first third of this one). It's that these are the sort of big government projects or government regulations that have greatly benefited our society. The same sort of government intervention that conservatives rail against. [b]Interstate Highway System[/b] Proposed by Roosevelt and erected by Eisenhower (a Republican), the Interstate system was a big government project. As much as anything else in the post WWII era, the Interstate is responsible for tremendous economic growth, prosperity, and has spawned an entire culture. At the time it was originally proposed it was vehemently opposed by conservatives. I might point out that many of the conservatives here like to oppose all government plans as inherently evil and socialistic, so you can see why conservatives of that era opposed that idea. [b]Marshall Plan[/b] Foreign aid is a popular scapegoat these days. Those who would cut it (like Bush) should look back at the Marshall Plan, which rebuilt Europe, and is the major reason that Communism never made it past East Berlin. cont.
Posts: 3,353

12-22-2000, 08:31 PM	#40
shakesthecat Veteran Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: IA Casino cash: $4313833	[b]Space Program[/b] It was Kennedy who challenged us to make it to the moon, and it is under his and Johnson's administrations that the space program took off, with numerous benefits to American industry and peoples' standard of living, not to mention national pride. If you are reading this on a computer, thank the space program and the liberals who got it going. [b]Internet[/b] Not a liberal program per se, but rather a government one, which many equate as the same thing according to most conservatives on this board. The internet is a good example of what a government program can do when allowed to work. [b]Scientific Research[/b] Much of the great discoveries in science have come about through grants from the government. This is not to say that scientific genius depends on Washington, but the fact remains that pure science is expensive, and private industry will often not fund experiments which don't have a direct commercial potential. From Salk's polio vaccine to todays Human Genome Project and Hubble Space Telescope, the government is an important partner in scientific discovery. Conservatives would like to cut the research budget to almost nothing, because again it's another 'big government socialistic plan'.<BR>
Posts: 3,353

12-22-2000, 08:34 PM	#41
shakesthecat Veteran Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: IA Casino cash: $4313833	Kurt, Are you proposing that Liberals didn't serve and fight for their country in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam? I certainly hope not, because that is clearly not the case.
Posts: 3,353

12-22-2000, 08:38 PM	#42
shakesthecat Veteran Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: IA Casino cash: $4313833	Luz, I think you know by now I find the politicized vitriol spewed by both sides to be tasteless and contemptuous. Deceit has nothing to do with liberalism vs. conservative beliefs. How quaint of you to try changing the subject.
Posts: 3,353

12-22-2000, 09:05 PM	#43
Ecto-I The only way to Travel. Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: In the car Casino cash: $5353602	KC Jones, per posts #29,30 (note signature) I'm neither a Conservative nor a Republican. I urge you to take a moment, be objective, and ponder a different outcome from turning points in our history had a Conservative occupied the office of the President, or any other significant office, when indeed a Liberal was there to make a decision. The only thing that may have had been delayed would would be Lincoln's "freeing of the slaves" in my opinion ,but the claims of your Liberal web site stirs some personal curiosities . . . I strongly feel that some of the programs mentioned in it's list originate in the natural evolution of our world and this great country. ------------------ Chief Justice Pants (D)- Texas
Posts: 2,919

12-23-2000, 12:42 AM	#44
JOhn El' Barto Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Cody, WY / Tucson AZ Casino cash: $9964900	KC Jones, How can you accuse me of changing the subject when I created the subject in the first place? It is you, sir, that will not address the issue. Once again, in the hopes that you won't dodge it again, I ask you: Was it ETHICAL for the Dogmatic Liberal Leadership of the Democratic party to purposely set out to label Republicans (in the public eye) as racist, mean spirited, uncaring, and against the poor? Was it EFFECTIVE? Was it ACCURRATE? Stop avoiding the subject and answer the question. Luz if you give me a straight answer i'll show you why you're all wet on your 'big government projects' crusade... <BR>
Posts: 25,529

12-23-2000, 01:01 AM	#45
JOhn El' Barto Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Cody, WY / Tucson AZ Casino cash: $9964900	CRP, You honor me with #339, and I want you to know that I always enjoy discussing things with you. I guess that one of my points on this thread is that some of these extremists DO reside in the Democratic Party. As a matter of fact, they currently represent the leadership of that party. I'm specifically reffering to Gephardt, Daschel, Wexman, Waters and other non-elected players such as the Rev Jackson and Patty Ireland. These people do not represent mainstream thought, nor traditional Democratic Party values ~ they are fringe elements that in most cases are more concerned about holding onto power than they are the wellfare of the people. A case could be made that Gephardt, Daschel, and Ireland are sincere (just misguided IMO), but even so, they are WAY OUT THERE to the left of anything this country has ever seen. Much like Nader, what they advocate borders on pure socialism. The main point (and what KC Jones doesn't get) is that they are NOT traditional Democrasts or Traditional Liberals ~ he can spout history all he wants, but it has nothing to do with these guys. I personally have no problem working hand in hand with Democrats or sincere liberals ~ but America needs to become aware of what these guys are. If the veil is lifted, Americans (Dems and Repubs) will not stand for them. Luz striving to be clear...
Posts: 25,529