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Old 10-08-2008, 08:37 AM  
KCJohnny KCJohnny is offline
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War Deaths and Abortions: No Moral Equivalence

Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief
Or how is it that people like KCJohnny are pro-killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians including women, children, and unborn babies?

Pro-life, my ass. Anti-abortion, maybe, but not pro-life.


You are not correct.

A few facts from a vet who was there when Baghdad fell.

1. Iraqis were 4x likely to be killed by their own government than by enemy combatants after the March 2003 invasion;
2. Figures by reliable organizations place the total civilian death count since 2003 at about 96,000. What they don't tell you is that enemy combatants are rolled into that number. So are Iraqis killed by enemy combatants. The enemy in Iraq (Al Qaeda, Mahdi Army, 1920 Brigades, Badr Brigades, Ansar al Islam, etc...) do not wear uniforms and are considered "civilian deaths" by statiticians tracking the body count in OIF.
3. The greatest killer of Iraqi civilians are other Iraqis. Insurgency operations are focused on the perceived collaborators (Iraqis fighting with us against the insurgents) and not the perceived 'occupier'. Therefore suicide bombers target Iraqi police, Iraqi Army, and Iraqi civilians. The overwhelming preponderance of Iraqi civilians killed are killed by other Iraqis.
4. The strategy of AQ is to foment sectarian strife between Shia and Sunni. This is why AQ bombed the Golden Dome Mosque (Shiite) in Samarra in 2006. The Shiite response was to retaliate against Sunnis by deploying 'death squads'. This strategy was designed to foment Sunni regional intervention on behalf of Iraqi Sunnis. General Petraeus cut its head off and stuck it on a pole called "The Surge" (actually counterinsurgency).
5. The first principle of counterinsurgency (Field Manual 3-24) is PROTECT THE POPULATION. So how does that fit your pet liberal, anti-US theory?
6. The actual count of Iraqi noncombatant civilians killed by Coalition Forces is inconsequential.

To all Chiefs Planet posters: these are true facts, I was there at MNF-I HQs in February (as many of you know), and this is why these arguments are so much leftist bluster.

Now, as regarding Mr. Mecca's protestations, 40 million babies killed in their own mothers' wombs since 1973 with the legal protections for the predators compared to a few hundred deeply regretted colatteral casualties in a war to liberate 25 million people from a murderous terrorist tyrant is hardly worth comparison.
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCJohnny View Post


1. Iraqis were 4x likely to be killed by their own government than by enemy combatants after the March 2003 invasion;
2. Figures by reliable organizations place the total civilian death count since 2003 at about 96,000. What they don't tell you is that enemy combatants are rolled into that number. So are Iraqis killed by enemy combatants. The enemy in Iraq (Al Qaeda, Mahdi Army, 1920 Brigades, Badr Brigades, Ansar al Islam, etc...) do not wear uniforms and are considered "civilian deaths" by statiticians tracking the body count in OIF.
3. The greatest killer of Iraqi civilians are other Iraqis. Insurgency operations are focused on the perceived collaborators (Iraqis fighting with us against the insurgents) and not the perceived 'occupier'. Therefore suicide bombers target Iraqi police, Iraqi Army, and Iraqi civilians. The overwhelming preponderance of Iraqi civilians killed are killed by other Iraqis.
4. The strategy of AQ is to foment sectarian strife between Shia and Sunni. This is why AQ bombed the Golden Dome Mosque (Shiite) in Samarra in 2006. The Shiite response was to retaliate against Sunnis by deploying 'death squads'. This strategy was designed to foment Sunni regional intervention on behalf of Iraqi Sunnis. General Petraeus cut its head off and stuck it on a pole called "The Surge" (actually counterinsurgency).
5. The first principle of counterinsurgency (Field Manual 3-24) is PROTECT THE POPULATION. So how does that fit your pet liberal, anti-US theory?
6. The actual count of Iraqi noncombatant civilians killed by Coalition Forces is inconsequential.
Anything to justify staying in a war, that is based on BOGUS intelligence, but don't let that stop you from supporting the murderous ways.
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
It is my understanding from my fundamentalist days that all sins are equally offensive to God. As such lying or stealing or having other interests ahead of god or whatever (including mixed fabrics) are equally offensive to god as killing without his permission. The comparative discussion is pointless.
Which identifies you sir as no subject matter expert on divine judgment. SEE: Luke chapter 12:

Quote:
42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:58 AM   #18
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How about the one that claims, no false judgements of others, Johnny boy?
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:59 AM   #19
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Flopnuts View Post
Why does he kill toddlers through cancer, and other horrible diseases? What did those kids do to deserve that?
This is easy. Gays.
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:59 AM   #20
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Johnny,

You fail to understand the basic tenet of his claim.

Either you are for all life or you are not. Numbers don't matter.

You are obviously not pro-life.
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Old 10-08-2008, 10:10 AM   #21
tiptap tiptap is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCJohnny View Post
Which identifies you sir as no subject matter expert on divine judgment. SEE: Luke chapter 12:
This still leaves the question of determining which is the greater sin. And that is all of your choosing. As the passage doesn't say a thing about killing being worse. I realize you think you know god's mind. That you know his priorities because of your reading of the Bible. But there are plenty of Old Testament examples of killing of babies, (including the first born) so I don't presume to know for any individual what god's view would be. That is my point. I don't want you as my judge.
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Old 10-08-2008, 10:17 AM   #22
KCJohnny KCJohnny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishjayhawk View Post
Johnny,

You fail to understand the basic tenet of his claim.

Either you are for all life or you are not. Numbers don't matter.

You are obviously not pro-life.
Don't presume to tell me I am not pro life. I have taken more actions in defense of other people in the past 15 years in Haiti, Korea and Iraq than you will in your entire lifetime.
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Old 10-08-2008, 10:19 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishjayhawk View Post
Johnny,

You fail to understand the basic tenet of his claim.

Either you are for all life or you are not. Numbers don't matter.

You are obviously not pro-life.
With the possible exception of some having free will to do 'x' or 'y' and that action is punished by the death penalty.

The innocence of a child is just that, the innocence of an adult is subject a lot of cases.

In a lot of minds, that it is a tough call.
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Old 10-08-2008, 01:29 PM   #24
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCJohnny View Post
Don't presume to tell me I am not pro life. I have taken more actions in defense of other people in the past 15 years in Haiti, Korea and Iraq than you will in your entire lifetime.
You are not pro-life if you contribute to the killing of other people. Being in the military fits that bill.

Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkkcoh View Post
With the possible exception of some having free will to do 'x' or 'y' and that action is punished by the death penalty.

The innocence of a child is just that, the innocence of an adult is subject a lot of cases.

In a lot of minds, that it is a tough call.
No. You either are pro-life or you are not. FOR LIFE or not. Period. You can't call yourself FOR life and then make exception after exception.
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