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Old 10-07-2007, 09:13 PM  
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:25 AM   #4126
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by Boris The Great View Post
Its not an argument, these are business facts. WWE business was doing well from the Austin era, but began an upswing in early 2000 when the HHH-Stephanie marriage angle got hot. Austin was gone and Rock was already hot all through 1999, its not like something happened to make him even bigger.

Obviously HHH isnt in the league of Austin or Rock as a star, but to say he was never a draw just isnt true. And the real declining started when the WCW invasion failed, thats when business trends started to noticeably go south. Then the brand split weakened things because shows were only featuring half the talent. Rock and Austin were still regulars at that point, but obviously when they left it didnt help.



Yeah, and they kept at it and he ended up becoming a big star. The same thing happened to Rock when they first pushed him. Everyone hated him. Then they stuck him in the Nation and pushed him into a feud with Austin that nobody thought he deserved at the time. But by the next year, he was the future of the company.

A lot of guys have that story.
That's just ridiculous

Rock's first push was awful and the fans crapped on him as a result.

After that, the Rock got over all by his goddamned self. He got himself over when he was in the Nation with maybe the greatest mic work in the history of the business.

Go look up his promo from the Monday before Summer Slam of '98 when he rips on Chyna, or when he gave gifts to the Nation.

However, Rocky's time as a full time wrestler ended the Monday after WM 17, after that, he never really worked a full schedule again, even though he came back later that summer.

And as far as being a draw, everyone in the ****ing world was watching in 1999 and 2000, and the belt was flying back and forth. By the time Rock and Austin were on their way out, and HHH was the undisputed top guy, it was after WM 18, and shortly after that, and the horribly botched Invasion Angle (thanks Vince's Ego), business went in the shitter.

If HHH really was a draw, he would have gotten Raw 5's and 6's and not 3's once the business cooled off.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:27 AM   #4127
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Triple H is also the only heel who wasnt booked like a total pussy
A month ago in this thread people were talking about the great era of heels in WWE with Jericho, Edge, and Orton, and now they are all just pussies? The only one who might be arguable is Edge, but I would say he is more sneaky than a pussy. People buy him as a credible threat in the ring, which is what matters.

Regardless, what about Brock Lesnar? No one wants to remember, but Khali was world champ for a while. Then you have Kozlov. All were pushed like monsters.

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Also why every year at the HOF does one of the old guys have to suck off Triple H like hes the greatest thing ever?
They still want jobs in 10 years.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:33 AM   #4128
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:34 AM   #4129
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Originally Posted by Boris The Great View Post
A month ago in this thread people were talking about the great era of heels in WWE with Jericho, Edge, and Orton, and now they are all just pussies? The only one who might be arguable is Edge, but I would say he is more sneaky than a pussy. People buy him as a credible threat in the ring, which is what matters.

Regardless, what about Brock Lesnar? No one wants to remember, but Khali was world champ for a while. Then you have Kozlov. All were pushed like monsters.



They still want jobs in 10 years.
Brock Lesnar was given the biggest God push since Hogan, that's true.

Khali and Kozlov can't work and can't talk. Orton, Jericho, and Edge are three of the best guys in the company. There is an ocean of difference there.

And Edge is booked like a pussy. When was the last time he had a clean defense of his title on a PPV? The dude has won 8 titles, every time through nefarious means, and never just goes over anyone clean.

Orton was just bitched out hardcore over the course of two months. Yeah, he got to punt Vince and Shane (of course Shane gave him everything he could handle) and took out Stephanie, but every time he went up against H, he was either getting tossed out of windows or his faction was getting buried.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:34 AM   #4130
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Thats just ridiculous

Rocks first push was awful and the fans crapped on him as a result.

After that, the Rock got over all by his goddamned self. He got himself over when he was in the Nation with maybe the greatest mic work in the history of the business.

Go look up his promo from the Monday before Summer Slam of 98 when he rips on Chyna
Which was well after his feud with Austin that I mentioned. I am talking about their IC title feud in 1997. Rock had been put in the Nation and was doing nothing. The Nation was doing Gang Warz with DOA and Los Boricuas. They couldnt have been less important.

Austin was feuding with Owen and the Hart Foundation, but they all left after Survivor Series and Austin needed a new opponent. He got Rocky. Almost to a man, the reaction at the time was like why is Rocky getting another chance? Austin was the hottest guy in the business and they were sticking him with this guy?

But in that feud he became The Rock and turned into a star. Sometimes guys get hot right away, some times it takes another try, and some guys never make it no matter how many times they get pushed (Billy Gunn leaps to mind).
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:36 AM   #4131
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Originally Posted by Boris The Great View Post
Which was well after his feud with Austin that I mentioned. I am talking about their IC title feud in 1997. Rock had been put in the Nation and was doing nothing. The Nation was doing Gang Warz with DOA and Los Boricuas. They couldnt have been less important.

Austin was feuding with Owen and the Hart Foundation, but they all left after Survivor Series and Austin needed a new opponent. He got Rocky. Almost to a man, the reaction at the time was like why is Rocky getting another chance? Austin was the hottest guy in the business and they were sticking him with this guy?

But in that feud he became The Rock and turned into a star. Sometimes guys get hot right away, some times it takes another try, and some guys never make it no matter how many times they get pushed (Billy Gunn leaps to mind).
And look up his promo when he first calls himself "The best damn Intercontinental Champ there ever was."

It was a textbook example of how to cut an egotistical promo without relying on cheap heat.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:37 AM   #4132
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Orton is booked like he should never be in a fight, he is made to look like he's a lilly soft guy who can't hang with anyone in a fair fight.

He got beat up by Shane McMahon for christ sake.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:39 AM   #4133
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Which was well after his feud with Austin that I mentioned. I am talking about their IC title feud in 1997. Rock had been put in the Nation and was doing nothing. The Nation was doing Gang Warz with DOA and Los Boricuas. They couldnt have been less important.

Austin was feuding with Owen and the Hart Foundation, but they all left after Survivor Series and Austin needed a new opponent. He got Rocky. Almost to a man, the reaction at the time was like why is Rocky getting another chance? Austin was the hottest guy in the business and they were sticking him with this guy?

But in that feud he became The Rock and turned into a star. Sometimes guys get hot right away, some times it takes another try, and some guys never make it no matter how many times they get pushed (Billy Gunn leaps to mind).
Any guy in the company would have been over with what they gave to H, he wasn't given time to change his character....he was given Stephanie McMahon and a ton of camera time.

But I always enjoyed how some guys would just be pushed down everyones throat while other guys got once chance and were deemed failures to never be heard from again.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:39 AM   #4134
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And Edge is booked like a pussy. When was the last time he had a clean defense of his title on a PPV? The dude has won 8 titles, every time through nefarious means, and never just goes over anyone clean.
I just think of it as sneaky with Edge. People think he can win. He got into the Elimination Chamber through shady means, but he won it.

I think if someone is a pussy, nobody thinks they can win without help. Santino, now thats a pussy.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:42 AM   #4135
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I remember an interview that Bret did with "Off the Record" about six years ago when he said that he had nothing but the highest regard for Austin and Rock, and said when he first saw Rock he said "this is the guy who was going to take my spot", and when asked about H he said that no one ever really considered him one of the boys and always felt like he was an ass-kiss.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:43 AM   #4136
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I think WWE heels are booked in pussified fashion because they feel it's the easiest way to keep someone heel. The young male demo generally won't overly cheer for someone they think is a pussy.

If you make a guy a badass heel half the crowd is going to cheer for him.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:44 AM   #4137
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I remember an interview that Bret did with "Off the Record" about six years ago when he said that he had nothing but the highest regard for Austin and Rock, and said when he first saw Rock he said "this is the guy who was going to take my spot", and when asked about H he said that no one ever really considered him one of the boys and always felt like he was an ass-kiss.
That just goes back to why Rock basically said he'd never come back to work Michaels, when Rock was given the IC title run early, HHH and Shawn thought Rock was taking his spot and flipped out and it involved Michaels telling Vince "this guy Rock, he's not shit, he'll never be shit, you should just fire him now" and apparently the Rock has never forgotten that.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:49 AM   #4138
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That just goes back to why Rock basically said he'd never come back to work Michaels, when Rock was given the IC title run early, HHH and Shawn thought Rock was taking his spot and flipped out and it involved Michaels telling Vince "this guy Rock, he's not shit, he'll never be shit, you should just fire him now" and apparently the Rock has never forgotten that.
That and Bret and Rocky were close and he was really pissed about Montreal.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:51 AM   #4139
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I think it was pretty obvious that Triple H had/has a personal issue with the rock and always has...

The Rock went out of his way to put Hurricane over and as soon as he left, H buried him.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:50 AM   #4140
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I was reading back to old posts about this, and someone said it really well about how its like some people are endlessly trying to prove a point about HHH that doesnt need to be proved to anyone. And when they do it, they usually rely on the same he hasnt been *pinned* with a *finisher* type stuff to boost their case, when the case doesnt need boosting.
THAT WAS ME. Of course, I'm just the guy defending HHH, durr furr hurdy dur.

If you're going to say stuff, make it credible. Have some objectivity. Make it so a blind guy can't find his way through all the holes. That's my entire point and has always been my point, whether it's about HHH or anything. Why is that so hard? It's really not.

If one of youse saw some dubious exaggeration or whatever about a draft prospect, you'd be all over it like stink on a monkey. I see the same dubious exaggerations and such for YEARS and I finally get to where I'm like "yeah, well, that's not actually true" and suddenly I'm carrying Hunter's bags*.

This does not mean I care to see him on my TV, going over more talented younger superstars of wrestling. I hope we can put this issue to rest.

(*Which I would. 'Cause then I could probably carry Stephanie's bags. And then HIT ME VINCE

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Its not an opinion, the amount of money people drew are verified facts. The Warrior drew little. So did Shawn, but he has made far more for WWE over his career than Warrior ever did. If nothing else, that should be common sense due to longevity.
Meltzer put out a list of WWE's all-time top money makers just a little while ago. HBK was on the bottom end of the top ten. I don't think Warrior was in the top 25.

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The Rock went out of his way to put Hurricane over
Seriously? Do you remember that match?
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