Official 2012-2013 NBA Thread

[Al Bundy]

Looks like James Harden has been To the Rockets for Jeremey Lamb, Kevin Martin and future picks. Plus... this is a general NBA thread.

[okcchief]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

His internal belief in himself is quite ridiculous. If Vince Carter had even half his will, the Raptors would have made it to a few NBA Finals last decade (and Vince's legacy would also be completely different than it is).

I don't recall the Raptors ever having Phil, Shaq etc. I don't know that you can put that all on Vince.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by okcchief

I don't recall the Raptors ever having Phil, Shaq etc. I don't know that you can put that all on Vince.

I don't put it all on Vince (and the Raptors never would have beaten Shaq and Kobe no matter what Vince or anybody else did). But Vince Carter of the late 90s/early 2000s was as close a player as you'll find to Michael Jordan in terms of skillset. He had raw ability that Kobe can only dream of. He just didn't have anywhere near the same level of want and willpower to be the best.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by okcchief

I agree. No one plays better basketball than the Spurs. They just don't provide the flash a lot of people like. Not boring to me in the least. In fact, I'm in awe of the system, and how Pop can plug and play.

I wish they were on national TV more. Even the game on TNT where Pop didn't play his starters was really entertaining because of how they worked as a team.

[okcchief]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I don't put it all on Vince (and the Raptors never would have beaten Shaq and Kobe no matter what Vince or anybody else did). But Vince Carter of the late 90s/early 2000s was as close a player as you'll find to Michael Jordan in terms of skillset. He had raw ability that Kobe can only dream of. He just didn't have anywhere near the same level of want and willpower to be the best.

I would agree with that. The big difference was always on the defensive side, and a lot of that is desire when you are that talented. It seems like Vince plays with a lot more now that his skills have declined. Too bad he didn't mature quicker.

[AdumbGuy]

Originally Posted by okcchief

They were way out matched as a team. The thing about Kobe is he always thinks he can win it all no matter how bad the Lakers are. Call it delusion, call it will or whatever. He really ****ing believes it, and will fight you. He and Dwight Howard couldn't be more different. If Kobe breaks a leg he'll hop on one. If Howard gets a hangnail he'll miss 10 games. I don't like Kobe really, but his competitiveness is only matched by Jordan. They would kill their mom to get to a lose ball. Probably not a good characteristic to have in some facets of life, but it works on the basketball court.

I don't buy this simply because I watched the game 7 against the vaunted phoenix suns' defense, where kobe decided to throw a hissy fit and not shoot in the 2nd half cuz all the mean people said he didn't pass. In a game 7! Killer instinct, my ass. I'd say Iverson has more of a killer instinct - show me one game ever where dude didn't play all out. That kobe killer instinct nonsense is worse than the lebron isn't clutch narrative.

You're still right about Howard though. Soft, whiny, overrated.

Also Ron Artest/Metta World Peace has a killer instinct... but probably more literally

[KevB]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

I don't buy this simply because I watched the game 7 against the vaunted phoenix suns' defense, where kobe decided to throw a hissy fit and not shoot in the 2nd half cuz all the mean people said he didn't pass. In a game 7! Killer instinct, my ass. I'd say Iverson has more of a killer instinct - show me one game ever where dude didn't play all out. That kobe killer instinct nonsense is worse than the lebron isn't clutch narrative.

You're still right about Howard though. Soft, whiny, overrated.

Also Ron Artest/Metta World Peace has a killer instinct... but probably more literally

He has killer instinct, but he's still a diva. I think that explains the Game 7 you referenced. That, and he was pouting because Mitch put such a terrible team around him. And as we found out recently, he and Smush Parker (who was starting at PG at that time) have no love lost between them. This game, however, is one of several reasons Kobe will never measure up to Jordan.

[KevB]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I don't put it all on Vince (and the Raptors never would have beaten Shaq and Kobe no matter what Vince or anybody else did). But Vince Carter of the late 90s/early 2000s was as close a player as you'll find to Michael Jordan in terms of skillset. He had raw ability that Kobe can only dream of. He just didn't have anywhere near the same level of want and willpower to be the best.

I liken Rudy Gay to Vince Carter. Very athletic and fluid. There's a smoothness to both of their games that makes it a pleasure to watch. You want to believe both are/were better than they really are (Vince was a better player than Rudy). They both think they want to be the man, get up 20+ shots, etc.

Toronto does like athletic wings....

[AdumbGuy]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I don't put it all on Vince (and the Raptors never would have beaten Shaq and Kobe no matter what Vince or anybody else did). But Vince Carter of the late 90s/early 2000s was as close a player as you'll find to Michael Jordan in terms of skillset. He had raw ability that Kobe can only dream of. He just didn't have anywhere near the same level of want and willpower to be the best.

I think jordan was much, much quicker. Vince's agility though is very much like kobe's, but with insane hops. I have to give Kobe some credit because I think Carter, McGrady, Iverson, and pre-injury Grant Hill were all more athletic than him, whereas Jordan was completely peerless athletically in his time, much like Lebron now.

[The Bad Guy]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

I don't buy this simply because I watched the game 7 against the vaunted phoenix suns' defense, where kobe decided to throw a hissy fit and not shoot in the 2nd half cuz all the mean people said he didn't pass. In a game 7! Killer instinct, my ass. I'd say Iverson has more of a killer instinct - show me one game ever where dude didn't play all out. That kobe killer instinct nonsense is worse than the lebron isn't clutch narrative.

You're still right about Howard though. Soft, whiny, overrated.

Also Ron Artest/Metta World Peace has a killer instinct... but probably more literally

I'm glad your analysis, as wrong as it is, of one game is your measuring stick for how competitive a player is.

Also, because he didn't shoot he didn't play all out? Nice logic.

Here's a reasonable explanation, but I doubt you care about those.

http://chasing23.com/kobe-bryant-quit-game-7/

[AdumbGuy]

Just for fun, 100 vince carter dunks. ridiculous.

http://youtu.be/MNmU1esUF4k

[L.A. Chieffan]

Vince Carter over that seven footer from that euro trash country is the greatest dunk of all time

[AdumbGuy]

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

I'm glad your analysis, as wrong as it is, of one game is your measuring stick for how competitive a player is.

Also, because he didn't shoot he didn't play all out? Nice logic.

Here's a reasonable explanation, but I doubt you care about those.

http://chasing23.com/kobe-bryant-quit-game-7/

hahaha, one of my bball buddies pointed that site out to me before.

Did you watch that game? I watched that game. Dude would just pass the ball from about half court where a weak double team would come to meet him. And then... do nothing. He killed that offense by not attacking in any way.

Again, this is not the detroit piston's smothering defense, this was the basketball equivalent of the vermeil chiefs' defense. Kobe threw a hissy fit because everybody kept saying he passed too much. He decided that a game 7 was the place to take himself out of the offense. Anybody that watched that game saw it. Even Barkley and Kenny Smith called him out on it immediately after the game on Inside the NBA.

Game 7. I'm not talking about he did this once in preseason, in practice, or even game 24 of the regular season. THIS WAS THE PLAYOFFS!

[okcchief]

Kobe has had occasional questionable moments, but 99% of the time no one outside of Jordan has shown his desire IMO. To me it seems there is no objectivity surrounding LeBron or Kobe. Most people are complete fan boys or haters. I guess that's what all great players/teams get though.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by okcchief

I would agree with that. The big difference was always on the defensive side, and a lot of that is desire when you are that talented. It seems like Vince plays with a lot more now that his skills have declined. Too bad he didn't mature quicker.

He does. I read a stat the other day that suggested Vince was a top 10 perimeter defender in the NBA this season. The skillset was always there for him to be an elite defender in his prime, he just didn't care enough to put the effort in.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

Just for fun, 100 vince carter dunks. ridiculous.

http://youtu.be/MNmU1esUF4k

Another good one (includes some of his game winners and he had a ton):