***Offical 2012 STL Cardinals World Champions Thread ***

[BigRedChief]

St. Louis Cardinals: 7 reasons fans should feel good about 2012

Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2012, at 9:26 PM

St. Louis Cardinals fans are likely feeling deflated after the collapse that put an end to the team's dreams of a World Series repeat, but there is good reason to be excited.

With all of the odds against them, the Cardinals managed to push their 2012 season beyond any anticipated boundary.

Given all of the season's changes and the adversity the team had to fight through, the fact that they played in October at all was an anomaly in itself. On paper, it made sense for the Cardinals to be in the playoffs, but few saw them as a true threat.
As the season continued, even fans began to doubt as they watched the team seemingly crumble in June and July. When the Cardinals finally came to life in September they went 11-5 in the last 16 games of the season to lock up the second Wild Card position in its inaugural year.

That run, despite it's crushing end in Cincinnati in Game 7 of the National League Championship Series, lots of good came from the Cardinals' season and playoff run.
Following in no particular order are 10 reasons Cardinals fans have to be excited about the 2013 season.

Trevor Rosenthal
When rookie fireballer Trevor Rosenthal made his first trip to St. Louis, it was obvious almost instantly that he was something special.
Between his 100 mph fastball and the general inability for almost anyone to hit off of him, he became a huge part of the Cardinals playoff run.

He pitched in a total of 19 regular season games before the 22-year-old rookie from Lee's Summit, Mo. got his first taste of postseason baseball and he put on quite a show.
In 8.2 IP over seven postseason appearances, Rosenthal held opponents to only two hits and no runs.
It's possible that down the stretch he may have already earned his spot in the rotation for 2013.

Shelby Miller
The long-coveted fastball pitching prospect Shelby Miller also made his first trip to St. Louis in 2012 and put on a good show.
In 13.2 IP over six regular season games, Miller surrendered only two runs on nine hits. His postseason performance was more of the same with two runs on four hits in 3.2 IP.

Despite a dismal first half of the season in Memphis, Miller got himself together and still managed to make one major league start before the end of the season -- a very impressive start at that.
Against the Cincinnati Reds in the final game of the regular season, Miller posted 5.2 hitless innings. He gave up no runs and collected his first major league win.

Expect to see a lot more of Miller in St. Louis early in 2013.

Joe Kelly
When Joe Kelly made his major league debut on June 10, few could have guessed the importance he would play throughout the remainder of the 2012 season.
Kelly started 16 games for the Cardinals this season filling in for Jaime Garcia and Lance Lynn, but it was the postseason when he really came through for his teammates.

When starting pitchers struggled time and again in October, it was Kelly who came to their rescue.
In seven postseason appearances, Kelly threw 7.2 innings and surrendered only two runs on six hits. Kelly came through for the Cardinals from the bullpen.
There's a good chance that could be his home in the future.

Mike Matheny
When the Cardinals hired Mike Matheny to take over for Tony LaRussa, many question bringing in a manager with no experience to such a storied franchise.

He had a few hiccups and growing pains along the way, but for a rookie manager to get his team where Matheny did this year speaks volumes.
His players have a strong respect for Matheny and credit his positive style with being a driving force behind their 2012 success.
True, he didn't get them through the NLCS, but the team made it to an all or nothing Game 7. That's good experience for the players obviously, but also for Matheny. Not only did he learn a lot about managing in the media pressure cooker that is postseason baseball, he also got a taste of what it felt like to win as a manager.

NLCS loss means more drive to win
While the NLCS loss was a good lesson for a young manager, it's an even more important lesson for a young player.
The 2011 championship lit a fire under young players like Lance Lynn and Jon Jay. That fire helped drive them to extremely successful sophomore seasons.

What happened in 2012 will likely do the same for Rosenthal, Miller and Kelly. Their 2013 season may not be like Jay or Lynn's 2012, but now they've gotten a little taste of what it feels like to be a winner.

Both the excitement and the public humbling can be a great experience for any young player.

The run was without several key components
In a season riddled with injuries, none were as crucial as those late in the season.
The loss of Lance Berkman and Rafael Furcal significantly weakened the team's bench. Instead of having Pete Kozma, Allen Craig and Matt Carpenter to pinch hit, the team wound up having to use them in the lineup.

The loss of Jaime Garcia and Jake Westbrook also rocked the Cardinals. Instead of having Lynn and Westbrook also available from the bullpen, Lynn was pushed back into the rotation after a very successful NLDS bullpen stint.

Having gotten as deep into the playoffs as the Cardinals did in spite of the injuries is quite the accomplishment.

They did it without Pujols, LaRussa and Duncan
Few in the world of sports gave the Cardinals a fighting chance when Albert Pujols left the team to play on the west coast. Surely this team couldn't be as good as they were?

Few gave them a chance after longtime manager Tony LaRussa decided it was time to retire.
Few gave them a chance after pitching coach Dave Duncan left the team.
The Cardinals did it despite all of that. That's something any fan should be proud of.

No, they didn't hoist a trophy. There will be no parade or tickertape.
What there is, though, is hope for next year and that will come sooner than you may think.
After all, pitchers and catchers report to Spring Training in just four short months.

From a blog I was sent on twitter: http://www.dailystatesman.com/blogs/...es/entry/50051

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi

Trading two prospects isn't mortgaging the future. That's not in any way similar to what the Brewers have done the last few years. Remember, it was multiple trades that wiped them out, not just one.

And as others pointed out, your faith in these prospects becoming superstars may be misguided. Would you have been arguing this hard against trading Reyes, Rasmus, or Bryan Anderson when they were "can't miss"?

I was totally against the Rasmus trade. So WTF do I know.

But, I do know we cant keep shipping off our best prosepects for rental players and expect to compete every year.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

This.



We need a right arm that doesn't suck shit in the dugout.

On my Cardinals board I said we needed a lock-down 5 man bullpen. Matheny isn't a good enough manager to make chicken salad out of this mess.

What he needed there was Lance Lynn to turn to. He got stuck, as many mediocre managers do, in trying to massage the 7th inning. Right now he has 2 legitimate bullpen arms in Motte and Boggs and that's it. If he has Lance Lynne in his bullpen, he wins this game because he goes to Lynne in the 7th there.

The great managers can get by with a mediocre bullpen. They can mix and match and cajole until the staff falls into place. Matheny just isn't a great manager. He needs to have a 'pen where he can simply smile and dial.

This 'pen needs 3 more parts; 2 lefties and a hammer righty. Scrabble could do us a favor and become one of those lefties. Mozeliak will have to get us the other 2 because Sanchez is lost, Salas was never that great anyway and the rest of them are just warm bodies.

I'd strongly consider trading Shelby Miller for Tim Collins and Aaron Crow.

[Frazod]

Scrabble stinking it up, too. Jesus. We'll be lucky to get out of this inning without it getting any worse.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

On my Cardinals board I said we needed a lock-down 5 man bullpen. Matheny isn't a good enough manager to make chicken salad out of this mess.

What he needed there was Lance Lynn to turn to. He got stuck, as many mediocre managers do, in trying to massage the 7th inning. Right now he has 2 legitimate bullpen arms in Motte and Boggs and that's it. If he has Lance Lynne in his bullpen, he wins this game because he goes to Lynne in the 7th there.

The great managers can get by with a mediocre bullpen. They can mix and match and cajole until the staff falls into place. Matheny just isn't a great manager. He needs to have a 'pen where he can simply smile and dial.

This 'pen needs 3 more parts; 2 lefties and a hammer righty. Scrabble could do us a favor and become one of those lefties. Mozeliak will have to get us the other 2 because Sanchez is lost, Salas was never that great anyway and the rest of them are just warm bodies.

I'd strongly consider trading Shelby Miller for Tim Collins and Aaron Crow.

That would probably work out pretty well for us.


I would have really liked or would like to make a deal for a starter.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I was totally against the Rasmus trade. So WTF do I know.

But, I do know we cant keep shipping off our best prosepects for rental players and expect to compete every year.

Jocketty did.

The trick is to make sure that 'best prospects' /= 'best players'. Jocketty was a master at knowing exactly which of his players were legitimate ML prospects and he held onto them like grim death. He'd misfire on occasion (refusing to trade Aybar for Kevin Brown, who then kicked ass in SD for a year), but for the most part he was aggressive and it served us well.

I've been of the mind for awhile that Jenkins, who is not our best 'prospect' should be our most tightly guarded pitcher because I thought he projected best at this level. In my world, you trade Miller because he's the 'best prospect' but not Jenkins because he's likely to be the best player.

We pay scouts for a reason. When Shelby Miller was throwing 94 to start the year, our scouts would've known before everyone else's. Miller's star as a prospect didn't really start to fall until the last few weeks. He should've been dealt before then.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

This 'pen needs 3 more parts; 2 lefties and a hammer righty. Scrabble could do us a favor and become one of those lefties. Mozeliak will have to get us the other 2 because Sanchez is lost, Salas was never that great anyway and the rest of them are just warm bodies.

I'd strongly consider trading Shelby Miller for Tim Collins and Aaron Crow.

Does anyone not remember the Dan Haren trade?

[Frazod]

Whew.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Does anyone not remember the Dan Haren trade?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by frazod

If Rasmus gets it together and becomes a perrenial All-Star we can live with that, not just because we won the WS but because it just wasnt working out for him here. Maybe with Methany it would have been different but we had a log jam in the outfield. Someone had to go.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Does anyone not remember the Dan Haren trade?

Haren would be like throwing in Jenkins.

Haren was not considered a gem within the system. He was considered a guy that was just another decent arm probably destined for middle relief or the 5th starters role. Hell, many thought Kiko Calero was a bigger loss.

He was a scouting failure. If you're going to cite Haren, it has to be for the proposition that you trade nobody. Because Dan Haren would most assuredly not be analogous to Shelby Miller.

The 'gem' in that deal was Daric Barton and I notice you didn't call it the 'Barton' trade; which was what it was considered at the time.

If you trade Trevor Rosenthal or Tyrell Jenkins and he ends up being a stud, you've duplicated the Dan Haren trade. The Mulder trade perfectly illustrates my point, though. It wasn't Barton (the 'stud' in the deal) that hurt us - at all. Barton was among the top 10-15 prospects in baseball at that time and dealing him didn't hurt us a bit because ultimately our scouts knew more than everyone elses did (he wasn't going to stick at C or ever hit with enough power for 1st). I think dealing Miller is likely to have similar repercussions.

Like I said - it's a scouting issue, not an approach one. We need to make the right scouting decision here and I think we have already failed in doing so by allowing Miller's value to depreciate to a point that we can't get the talent we would've snagged for him before the rest of the league saw him throwing slop.

Trading Miller for Hamels would be just like trading Barton for Mulder. You have to hope that Hamels is better than Mulder (likely) and that we don't throw in Jenkins for giggles. I absolutely remember the Mulder trade and it does very little to bolster your argument.

[Frazod]

Carpenter delivers - Freese with a chance to tie or win.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Like I said - it's a scouting issue, not an approach one. We need to make the right scouting decision here and I think we have already failed in doing so by allowing Miller's value to depreciate to a point that we can't get the talent we would've snagged for him before the rest of the league saw him throwing slop.

If Miller sucks so bad why would any MLB team trade anything of value for him?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

If Miller sucks so bad why would any MLB team trade anything of value for him?

Because you're asking for 2 relief pitchers for him and everyone and their brother thinks they know something that nobody else does. Teams will still be intrigued by a guy with a sparkly Baseball America label because they think they'll be able to fix him.

You're not going to get star value for him at this point. You won't be getting Cole Hamels for him after his last 2 starts, that's for sure. But if you offer him to a pitching starved team like KC for 2 relief arms, especially when their GM prides himself on his ability to re-build a bullpen on the fly - well hell you just might get something valuable in return.

Do you happen to recall the guy we refused to include in the Mulder deal? The guy that was the next 'ace in waiting' and future superstar. The guy you certainly would've been referring to as a future CY winner?

Anthony Reyes. The unquestioned #1 pitching prospect in the organization.

Trading your best prospects doesn't hurt you. Trading your best players does. If we'd have traded Daric Barton (our top prospect) and Anthony Reyes (our best pitching prospect in a decade) for Mark Mulder, we'd have been a far far better team for it.

The window to get a Mulder returned has closed, but if we trade Miller now, we can probably get a little more than the Luis Perdomo we got for Anthony Reyes.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Great AB by Descalso.

[Frazod]

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER