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Old 09-17-2012, 04:06 PM  
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Romney: 47% of Americans are victims

I guess this maybe the kill shot for his campaign. I know some of you believe you this and won't find a problem with what he said but as a person running for POTUS you probably shouldn't write off 1/2 the country especially in a disparaging way.

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A hidden camera video of Mitt Romney at a fundraiser shows him talking disparagingly of people who will vote for President Obama.

Said Romney: "There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what...These are people who pay no income tax."

He adds: "My job is is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:30 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by vailpass View Post
That's just the problem though IMHO. Romney needs to limit his comments to those which even the lowest common denominator (NOT referring to Detoxing) can understand. Those that can understand where he is coming from aren't the voters that need to be reached.
I am far, far, far from impressed with the "campaign" the Romney camp has run thus far.
I said it a couple weeks ago and I believe it even moreso now: this campaign will be worse than the McCain/Palin campaign. McCain was at least somewhat likeable, Romney is just a rich douchenozzle that can only identify with other rich douchenozzles.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:32 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Swanman View Post
I said it a couple weeks ago and I believe it even moreso now: this campaign will be worse than the McCain/Palin campaign. McCain was at least somewhat likeable, Romney is just a rich douchenozzle that can only identify with other rich douchenozzles.
I wouldn't go that far. Many identify with Romney as holding many more of their same values than obama. obama has alienated a considerable portion of our society, most of whom are the producers.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:32 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Swanman View Post
I disagree. What I glean from his comment is "if you don't pay income taxes then you refuse to take responsibility for your life and just want handouts". If I am part of a family that works full-time and just doesn't make much and I already support Obama, I am pretend-pissed. If I am a senior citizen that paid income taxes my entire working life and now I live off a modest SS check and I already support Obama, I am pretend-pissed.
You left some important parts out of your post. I've taken the liberty of putting them back in for you so your post makes sense.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:33 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
He's only alienating people who want to be alienated. If you're not looking for a handout and as much free lunch as you can get, you have no reason to be alienated whether you're receiving government assistance or not and whether you're paying taxes or not.
What about poor Republicans who are being told they support Obama "no matter what"?

He's basically saying these people can't think for themselves.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:33 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by vailpass View Post
Handouts. Thanks. Any idea where the money comes from for these welfare payments?
You should read this column from conservative Reihan Salam.

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Makers, Takers, Taxpayers, Etc.
By Reihan Salam


A great deal of ink has already been spilled over Mitt Romney’s remarks at a fundraiser concerning the 47% of Americans who are dependent on government and who do not pay federal income taxes. A few thoughts immediately come to mind:

Last July, Roberton Williams of the Tax Policy Center broke down why 46% of tax units had no income tax liability, drawing on the findings of a TPC report he co-authored with Rachel Johnson, James Nunns, Jeffrey Rohaly, and Eric Toder. The story is complicated, and it doesn’t line up well with the dependency story Romney seemed to have in mind.

(It is worth noting, incidentally, that “tax units” aren’t a perfect proxy for individuals or even households. Rather, it refers, as you’ve probably guessed, to individuals or to married couples who’ve decided to file a joint tax return, along with their dependents. A multigenerational household might include several tax units, for example.)

Part of the story is that many tax units — roughly half of the 46% — report very low incomes:
For example, a couple with two children earning less than $26,400 will pay no federal income tax this year because their $11,600 standard deduction and four exemptions of $3,700 each reduce their taxable income to zero. The basic structure of the income tax simply exempts subsistence levels of income from tax.
So what about the other half?
What about the rest of the untaxed households, the 23 percent of households who don’t pay income tax because of particular tax breaks? We divided tax expenditures (special provisions in the tax code that benefit particular taxpayers or activities) into eight categories and asked which ones made the most people nontaxable. The conclusion: Three-fourths of those households pay no income tax because of provisions that benefit senior citizens and low-income working families with children. Those provisions include the exclusion of some Social Security benefits from taxable income, the tax credit and extra standard deduction for the elderly, and the child, earned income, and childcare tax credits that primarily help low-income workers with children (see graph). Extending the example offered above, the couple could earn an additional $19,375 without paying income tax because their pre-credit tax liability of $2,056 would be wiped out by a $2,000 child tax credit and $57 of EITC.
Republicans have championed the EITC as an anti-poverty tool that emphasizes the importance of labor force participation, and the program is rightly regarded as a success, though of course there is a case for improving the program in various ways or indeed for shifting to wage subsidies that would also benefit low-wage workers who aren’t custodial parents. The idea behind the EITC, as I understand it, is that subsidies aimed at increasing labor force participation and other work supports are preferable to a negative income tax or unconditional cash assistance because they encourage people get on the first rungs of the jobs ladder, and to become less dependent over time. (See our discussion of the EITC vs. the NIT.)

Tax credits for parents are arguably an extremely low-cost way to recognize the fact that raising the next generation constitutes an expensive investment in human capital that will yield dividends for society as a whole. Tax breaks for Social Security payments, meanwhile, can be defended on the grounds that they are not likely to create significant work disincentives.

Over the years, I’ve advocated wage subsidies because I am very concerned about declining labor force participation, particularly for less-skilled men, and I tend to think that the social benefits outweigh the cost. Along with Ross Douthat, Ramesh Ponnuru, Robert Stein, and Yuval Levin, among others, I’ve also advocated dramatically expanding the child tax credit, and allowing it to offset not just income taxes but payroll taxes as well. More recently, I have embraced Andrew Biggs’ suggestion that we abolish the Social Security payroll tax for workers over the age of 62 on the grounds that it would increase labor supply, improve health outcomes, and increase tax revenues by enough to make the proposal a fiscal wash.

What is the basic idea that ties these threads together? I think it is important to keep in mind that taxes impact people differently across the life cycle. Many low-income households are headed by young people. Many high-income households, in contrast, are headed by prime-age individuals. Some prime-age individuals have children, and they are thus obligated to make substantial human capital investments in their children that generate significant spillover benefits. Other prime-age individuals do not have children. This is, in my view, a difference in circumstances that should be reflected in tax policy. As we’ve discussed in this space, the elasticity of taxable income varies across individuals and broad demographic groups, e.g., very young and workers close to retirement appear to be more tax-sensitive than prime-age workers, and secondary earners are more tax-sensitive than primary earners. None of this should be shocking. Indeed, to some extent the increase in the number of tax units that do not pay federal income taxes is an artifact of the changing demographic composition of the workforce, as well as the expansion of the EITC, etc.

The version of conservative tax policy I favor might actually further reduce the share of tax units that pay federal income taxes, yet it would strengthen the work ethic, increase labor force participation, and discourage the kind of dependency that concerns Mitt Romney.

There is much more to say. The Democratic coalition does indeed include many low-income voters, yet it also includes large numbers of upper-middle-income and high-income voters as well. Public employees tend to back Democratic candidates, and one assumes that most pay federal income taxes. The same is true of most college-educated social liberals. In contrast, many older voters and middle-income parents back Republican candidates. And so on.

So I associate myself with the views Ramesh Ponnuru expresses in his latest Bloomberg View column, and I am sympathetic to David Brooks’ latest as well.

One thing that frustrates me is that many Republicans who’ve embraced the “takers” interpretation of the fact that 46% of tax units didn’t pay federal income taxes forget why Republican policymakers of the past created policies like the EITC and the child tax credit in the first place. This lends credence to the analysis of center-left critics like Ezra Klein of Wonkbook:
Part of the reason so many Americans don’t pay federal income taxes is that Republicans have passed a series of very large tax cuts that wiped out the income-tax liability for many Americans. That’s why, when you look at graphs of the percent of Americans who don’t pay income taxes, you see huge jumps after Ronald Reagan’s 1986 tax reform and George W. Bush’s 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. So whenever you hear that half of Americans don’t pay federal income taxes, remember: Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush helped build that. (You also see a jump after the financial crisis begins in 2008, but we can expect that to be mostly temporary.)
Some of those tax cuts for the poor were there to make the tax cuts for the rich more politically palatable. “Do you think we wanted to include a welfare payment to people who don’t pay taxes and call it a tax cut?” A top Bush administration official once asked me. “No. But that’s what we needed to do to get it done.”

Having spoken to other Bush administration officials, I can attest to the fact that there were others who genuinely supported the expanded child tax credit and EITC on the grounds that these were sound conservative policy measures.

Ezra concludes that the narrowing of the tax base is part of a larger effort:
So notice what happened here: Republicans have become outraged over the predictable effect of tax cuts they passed and are using that outrage as the justification for an agenda that further cuts taxes on the rich and pays for it by cutting social services for the non-rich.
A more parsimonious explanation is that cohort replacement and a lack of a sense of history is doing all of the work: many of today’s Republicans are unacquainted with the case for the EITC and the child tax credit and the exclusion of Social Security benefits, or they fail to connect these initiatives to the narrowing of the tax base.

This isn’t a sinister plot. But it needs to be addressed. We need conservative politicians who are willing to explain why low-income and middle-income parents should be removed from the tax rolls during the years they are making the biggest investments in their children, and who are willing to make the case for the EITC program as an alternative to worklessness and lifelong dependency.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:34 PM   #486
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I wouldn't go that far. Many identify with Romney as holding many more of their same values than obama. obama has alienated a considerable portion of our society, most of whom are the producers.
We shall see. McCain's biggest gaffe (besides picking Palin) was when he suspended the campaign to "work on the economy" and then he just sat in meetings and didn't contribute one meaningful thing. This tape of Romney, imo, is a million times worse, especially on the heels of his foreign policy backlash a week ago. The guy can't stop from stepping on his dick at this point.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:35 PM   #487
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I didn't label you a moocher (although you probably are judging by the way you reacted to Romney's comment). I put a worse label on you. You're an Obama supporter.
And you're part of everything that is wrong with the right wing.

This kinda shit is what's wrong with your party.

I don't identify right and I dont identify left, you just want to make me into the enemy because I don't agree with what you say. That's not how you win voters.

I came into this thread blasting Romney for saying something stupid, and noting that the Republicans can't win with a man like that as their candidate.

I prefer calling BS, as just that, BS. I didn't come into this thread supporting Obama, nor did i come into this thread blasting the Right.

It seems to be a recurring theme with some of you.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:39 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by ReynardMuldrake View Post
What about poor Republicans who are being told they support Obama "no matter what"?

He's basically saying these people can't think for themselves.
There are no poor Republicans who are being told they support Obama "no matter what". When you hear Don McLean's American Pie, do you come to the conclusion that there was a day when the music actually died?
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:43 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There are no poor Republicans who are being told they support Obama "no matter what". When you hear Don McLean's American Pie, do you come to the conclusion that there was a day when the music actually died?
He made a generalized statement stating that 47% of Americans who don't pay an income tax are moochers. He indirectly attacked his own republicans.

I know you're right wing till you die, i get that, but it was a stupid comment to make.

Romney is a bonehead.

The R's should've identified a better candidate.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:47 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Detoxing View Post
He made a generalized statement stating that 47% of Americans who don't pay an income tax are moochers. He indirectly attacked his own republicans.

I know you're right wing till you die, i get that, but it was a stupid comment to make.

Romney is bonehead.

The R's should've identified a better candidate.
Pat would defend Romney if he said "Let's deport all the Black, Jews and Hispanics".

Pat has the distinct advantage of being able to ignore logic.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:48 PM   #491
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The R's should've identified a better candidate.
The problem is that he IS there best candidate.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:49 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Detoxing View Post
And you're part of everything that is wrong with the right wing.

This kinda shit is what's wrong with your party.

I don't identify right and I dont identify left, you just want to make me into the enemy because I don't agree with what you say. That's not how you win voters.

I came into this thread blasting Romney for saying something stupid, and noting that the Republicans can't win with a man like that as their candidate.

I prefer calling BS, as just that, BS. I didn't come into this thread supporting Obama, nor did i come into this thread blasting the Right.

It seems to be a recurring theme with some of you.
And you seem to be the kind of voter that is wrong with this country, much like Romney was saying. You're either in the tank for the dependency agenda or you're too caught up on superficialities to evaluate the candidates on a substantive basis.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:56 PM   #493
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Yes, he is.

He is alienating me, and people like me, among millions of others.

I certainly make more than 20K a year, Not enough to warrant a need to PAY (because of student loan deductions and several others that I qualify for) and not enough to get anything back.

I end up giving up $400-500 a month out of my checks, and typically end up awash at the end of the tax year, not owing anything, and not getting anything in return.

So I'm a moocher who's dependent on the government because of that?
No - you pay income tax. Payroll tax and income tax are two different things. Payroll tax is where it says FICA on your paycheck. Income tax is the ordinary tax that gets taken out.

Btw apparently Obama only needs 3% of people like you and me who pay income tax to win the election - since Obama is guaranteed 47%. Not sure why he's even running.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:58 PM   #494
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Pat would defend Romney if he said "Let's deport all the Black, Jews and Hispanics".

Pat has the distinct advantage of being able to ignore logic.
That is preposterous.
Everybody knows we need the jews.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:58 PM   #495
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And you seem to be the kind of voter that is wrong with this country, much like Romney was saying. You're either in the tank for the dependency agenda or you're too caught up on superficialities to evaluate the candidates on a substantive basis.
I know you didn't point that post at me, but I will respond anyway. I support Obama and I do just fine taking care of myself. I also help take care of my parents and other members of my extended family when needed. I am dependent on no one. I just don't want some dickhead that was born with a silver spoon lodged in his ass being the president. If the Republicans had any candidates that were palatable, I would be happy to consider voting Rebublican.
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