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Old 01-03-2008, 10:23 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Nothing to be ashamed of...

Regardless of what the peanut gallery will say, Ron Paul supporters have nothing to be ashamed of here. We have over 10,000 supporters in a state that we knew would be hard for us. We won the battle for independant voters within the party. We obliterated the national front runner with the high profile name. We proved that we belong on the debate stage.

We have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:41 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler
...I figured some on the Christian right might not like he lobbied for a pro-choice group.
That criticism, brought by Thompson's detractors, is a joke. A complete joke. Google it, and read some of the more objective accounts.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:45 PM   #92
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise
It's pretty ignorant to say Rudy basically has the same positions as all these other candidates.
He is pro-choice and IIRC he doesn't support an amendment to ban gay marriage. What else do I need to know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise
You seem to know little about Thompson or Romney in particular.
That is true. I only put Romney in there because he is Mormon. Would the Christian right feel comfortable for voting for a Mormon? In the general they might but they sure in the hell didn't last night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise
Besides, Rudy's chances have diminished to 5th or so. Any talk about Rudy being the nominee AFAIC is academic.
I am not counting Rudy out yet
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:49 PM   #93
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
As Cochise says, you are just plain wrong about "most" Evangelicals...they will have no problem voting for Thompson. Nonewhatsoever, despite Dobson's snubb. As far as McCain, Romney, or Giuliani??? Most will simply hold their noses and vote, rather than see Hillary or Obama win. Bet on it.
You get no argument from me if Hillary is the nominee. Like I said before the republicans would rally behind Satan just to defeat a Clinton.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:02 PM   #94
Eleazar Eleazar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler
He is pro-choice and IIRC he doesn't support an amendment to ban gay marriage. What else do I need to know?
To say Rudy is basically the same as all the other candidates betrays a lack of really any knowledge about them. He's the same on foreign policy, but other than that, they have little in common.

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That is true. I only put Romney in there because he is Mormon. Would the Christian right feel comfortable for voting for a Mormon? In the general they might but they sure in the hell didn't last night.
I have not heard anyone say, 'don't go vote for a mormon'. I have heard people say they don't think it's a big issue. I've heard speakers like radio hosts say they do or don't support him but to examine it and decide on your own. I've never heard a one say, "Don't vote for mormons"

Romney has a bigger problem, and that's that he hasn't really been conservative until a few years ago. Maybe he would be in office, he's making the right sounds now. But I think that is his main problem.

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I am not counting Rudy out yet
By the time Florida gets here, he's going to be an afterthought.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:14 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise
To say Rudy is basically the same as all the other candidates betrays a lack of really any knowledge about them. He's the same on foreign policy, but other than that, they have little in common.
I think we are having a failure to communicate. My point is Rudy has similar views as some Dem candidates as far as he is pro choice and is against an amendment to ban gay marriages. Which IMHO most on the Christian Right won't support him. Am I wrong?
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:54 PM   #96
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler
I am totally uneducated about trade agreements and the like but I guess my question to RP supporters or you is how does open and free trade work without government interference? And who would negotiate such trade agreements or would they be none?
I was hoping one of the Paul guys (or gal) would take this one, but since they haven't my answer is that each individual or company would do it's own negotiations. For the most part, Paul would favor something approximating a laissez faire attitude toward trade. He may tolerate tariffs (because our founding fathers did and the constitution allows it), but he probably wouldn't use them as weapons in a trade war or as tools intended to encourage one type of trade but discourage another. Maybe the RP supporters can provide a more specific statement about what RP's trade policy would look like. He doesn't have a policy statement on his campaign website which leads me to believe I'm right about this. In any event, I'm confident that his outlook on trade is very much aligned with the "isolationism" definition that I provided earlier in the thread.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:58 PM   #97
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Here are some resources to better understand Paul's positions on Free Trade. Of particular interest is the speech "What is Free Trade." He discusses it very well in this article:

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/topic.php?id=12
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:15 PM   #98
Eleazar Eleazar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler
I think we are having a failure to communicate. My point is Rudy has similar views as some Dem candidates as far as he is pro choice and is against an amendment to ban gay marriages. Which IMHO most on the Christian Right won't support him. Am I wrong?
Rudy is not going to be the nominee so there's no point to even worrying about it.
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:16 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Here are some resources to better understand Paul's positions on Free Trade. Of particular interest is the speech "What is Free Trade." He discusses it very well in this article:

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/topic.php?id=12
Can't you give us a thumbnail account, particularly for the high bandwidth media impaired?

Edit: FWIW, after scanning the "What is Free Trade" speech he made, I think I described his position pretty accurately.
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:12 PM   #100
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu
Can't you give us a thumbnail account, particularly for the high bandwidth media impaired?
You might try trading more or working more to afford it.
Quote:
Edit: FWIW, after scanning the "What is Free Trade" speech he made, I think I described his position pretty accurately.
All but the isolationist part. Allowing the people to buy and sell with whom and to whom they want in their mutual self-interest is a free-trade non-isolationist stand. Is govt involved to some degree, as dirk asks? Yes! By non-protective tariffs and enforcement of our laws in our country including use of our own courts. These are merely the natural barriers of being a sovereign country instead of part of an international global governance.

What Paul does not support is the central planning modesl of Nafta, FTAA, CAFTA, GATT and WTO which are set up to benefit certain corps in bed with govt, include protectionism as well as subsidies. Mercantilism aka cartel capitalism. These are not free trade agreements despite their monikers and they do not benefit the people.
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:34 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
You might try trading more or working more to afford it.
Yeah, I guess if I work enough I could lay the fiber to my house and provision a central office nearby for DSL. Or, instead of relying on videos and other high bandwidth media to do the talking for you, the Ron Paul people could describe his policies in their own words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
All but the isolationist part. Allowing the people to buy and sell with whom and to whom they want in their mutual self-interest is a free-trade non-isolationist stand. Is govt involved to some degree, as dirk asks? Yes! By non-protective tariffs and enforcement of our laws in our country including use of our own courts. These are merely the natural barriers of being a sovereign country instead of part of an international global governance.

What Paul does not support is the central planning modesl of Nafta, FTAA, CAFTA, GATT and WTO which are set up to benefit certain corps in bed with govt, include protectionism as well as subsidies. Mercantilism aka cartel capitalism. These are not free trade agreements despite their monikers and they do not benefit the people.
Like I said, I got it right. And it fits the definition I posted for isolationism very well. I know you want to narrowly define isolationism because you don't like the connotations and I agree that Paul doesn't favor a cut-the-American-people-off-from-the-outside-world model of isolationism, but his approach is still a form of isolationsim.

It fits this definition:

Quote:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
i·so·la·tion·ism –noun
the policy or doctrine of isolating one's country from the affairs of other nations by declining to enter into alliances, foreign economic commitments, international agreements, etc., seeking to devote the entire efforts of one's country to its own advancement and remain at peace by avoiding foreign entanglements and responsibilities.
and it also fits this definition:

Quote:
American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
isolationism

The doctrine that a nation should stay out of the disputes and affairs of other nations. The United States practiced a policy of isolationism until World War I and did not pursue an active international policy until after World War II. (See “entangling alliances with none.”)
A pre-Woodrow Wilson foreign policy is what you keep advocating, no?
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:51 PM   #102
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I said all but the isolationist part. I stand by it. Paul advocates your second definition and not fully the first. He does not not restrict the foreign economic commitments of his citizens aka commercial relations or cultural exchanges.

I'd like the name of the first dictionary. I have a Cultural Literacy dictionary but I found it to have more than a few falsehoods and contradictions to other sources. Just look up the history of the word and who coined it—internationalists. Self serving propaganda can find it's way into such things. You shoulda seen my kid's Middle School History books. "America is a democracy where the people make the laws." Oh brother!

Oh and even an isolationist believes in some interventions.
And no I do not believe we should be in a pre-Wilson fp totally, anyway.
I supported the Cold War, mostly. What I don't support is Empire.
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Old 01-05-2008, 12:12 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
I said all but the isolationist part. I stand by it. Paul advocates your second definition and not fully the first. He does not not restrict the foreign economic commitments of his citizens aka commercial relations or cultural exchanges.

I'd like the name of the first dictionary. I have a Cultural Literacy dictionary but I found it to have more than a few falsehoods and contradictions to other sources. Just look up the history of the word and who coined it—internationalists. Self serving propaganda can find it's way into such things. You shoulda seen my kid's Middle School History books. "America is a democracy where the people make the laws." Oh brother!

Oh and even an isolationist believes in some interventions.
And no I do not believe we should be in a pre-Wilson fp totally, anyway.
I supported the Cold War, mostly. What I don't support is Empire.
There's nothing in the first definition about restricting citizen activity.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/isolationism

Sorry I forgot the link before. And it's worth pointing out that you aren't nearly as scrupulous about tracing and sticking to the original meaning of the word "neoconservative" as you seem to be about the word "isolationism".
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