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Old 02-17-2018, 12:38 PM  
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
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Mueller Destroys "total hoax," "made-up story," and "greatest witch hunt" Lies

Guess Trump can now stop spouting his lies about Russian interference in the election, eh?

Even Trump's National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster responds to the indictments of 13 Russian nationals for their roles in attempted meddling in the 2016 election, saying evidence of Russian interference is "incontrovertible."


https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/polit...sel/index.html

Robert Mueller just made it impossible for Trump to call the special counsel probe a 'total hoax'

Analysis by Chris Cillizza, CNN Editor-at-large

On Friday afternoon, the Justice Department announced that special counsel Robert Mueller had indicted 13 Russian nationals for their roles in attempted meddling in the 2016 election.

Most of these people do not live in the United States, and you can bet your bottom dollar that Russia won't be extraditing them any time soon. But that's not the point.
The point is this: The indictments of a baker's dozen of Russians gives us a very clear window into not only the depth and breadth of the Mueller investigation, but also makes crystal clear what the Russians wanted in the 2016 election and the elaborate measures they undertook to make it happen.

This paragraph stands out:

"Defendant ORGANIZATION had a strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Defendants posted derogatory information about a number of candidates, and by early to mid-2016, Defendants' operations included supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump ("Trump Campaign") and disparaging Hillary Clinton. Defendants made various expenditures to carry out those activities, including buying political advertisements on social media in the names of U.S. persons and entities. Defendants also staged political rallies inside the United States, and while posing as U.S. grassroots entities and U.S. persons, and without revealing their Russian identities and ORGANIZATION affiliation, solicited and compensated real U.S. persons to promote or disparage candidates. Some Defendants, posing as U.S. persons and without revealing their Russian association, communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities."

OK. So what we know from that paragraph of the charging documents, which you can read in full here, is this:
  • By "early to mid-2016," Russians had decided to use whatever means at their disposal to help Donald Trump win.
  • The Russians bought political ads on social media sites and organized political rallies to achieve those goals.
  • Russians, disguising their identities, "communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump campaign" in an attempt to "coordinate political activities."
  • None of that is a smoking gun of collusion.
  • "Unwitting" members of Trumpworld working with Russians, who didn't identify themselves as Russians, is not the same as a willful effort on behalf of members of the Trump campaign to actively collude with the Russian government.
  • But what this latest set of indictments proves beyond a shadow of a doubt is that, yes, Russia staged an aggressive and elaborate effort to influence the 2016 election.
  • This was a multi-pronged campaign -- social media, in-person meetings, political rallies -- by the Russians to beat Hillary Clinton and elect Donald Trump. It employed hundreds of people.
  • That analysis, of course, jibes with the unanimous conclusion of the intelligence community in 2017 that Russia actively sought to influence the 2016 election in support of Trump.
  • What it runs directly counter to is Trump's ongoing -- and persistent -- attempts to cast the entire special counsel investigation as nothing more than a politically motivated sideshow.

    Here's a sampling of Trump's recent tweets touching on Mueller's investigation.
  • "This memo totally vindicates 'Trump' in probe. But the Russian Witch Hunt goes on and on. Their was no Collusion and there was no Obstruction (the word now used because, after one year of looking endlessly and finding NOTHING, collusion is dead)." (2/3/18)
  • "The single greatest Witch Hunt in American history continues. There was no collusion, everybody including the Dems knows there was no collusion, & yet on and on it goes. Russia & the world is laughing at the stupidity they are witnessing. Republicans should finally take control!" (1/10/18)
  • "The Russia-Trump collusion story is a total hoax, when will this taxpayer funded charade end?" (5/8/17)

There's lots (and lots) more tweets and quotes just like that from the President. Trump has suggested the attempted election hacking could have been perpetrated by China or even as a "guy sitting on their bed who weighs 400 pounds."

You get the idea. Despite the unanimous conclusion of the intelligence community -- including Trump's CIA Director Mike Pompeo and his FBI Director Christopher Wray -- that Russia engaged in a coordinated effort to meddle in the 2017 election, Trump still wasn't convinced.

Of course, this changes nothing when it comes to how Trump will respond. Even Friday afternoon, Trump tweeted about the Russian indictments, once again beating the "no collusion" drum.

"Russia started their anti-US campaign in 2014, long before I announced that I would run for President," Trump tweeted. "The results of the election were not impacted. The Trump campaign did nothing wrong - no collusion!"

But if it was very hard to hold the Trumpian position -- it might have been Russia, it might have been someone else! -- with a shred of intellectual honesty prior to Friday, it's impossible now.

Consider what the Mueller investigation has already done:
  • Former national security adviser Michael Flynn has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russians during the 2016 campaign and is cooperating with the Mueller investigation.
  • Former foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russians during the 2016 campaign and is cooperating with the Mueller investigation.
  • Former deputy campaign chairman Rick Gates is reportedly on the verge of signing a plea agreement and cooperating with Mueller. Gates faces a variety of charges, including money laundering and other financial crimes.
  • Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort faces a variety of charges of financial crimes
  • 13 Russians have been indicted on participating in a broad-scale attempt to throw the election to Trump.

That is not the stuff of witch hunts and hoaxes. Those are real-life charges which carry at least the possibility of real jail time.

And they all make a simple point: It's long past time for Trump to stop name-calling an investigation that has uncovered a massive effort for a foreign government to meddle in a US presidential election.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:38 PM   #136
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Don't give in to despair.
Yes that would be the point of the attacks.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:43 PM   #137
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Are you under the belief we dont do the exact same things to other countries including Russia?And there is zero evidence it affected the outcome, as has been reported over and over again.

Its all part of the game that everyone plays. Sorry to burst your bubble snowflake.

Detox - please educate this man on what all we are doing in other countries.
What truly free and open democratic election have we attempted to influence?
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:44 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post
Are you under the belief we dont do the exact same things to other countries including Russia?And there is zero evidence it affected the outcome, as has been reported over and over again.

Its all part of the game that everyone plays. Sorry to burst your bubble snowflake.

Detox - please educate this man on what all we are doing in other countries.
It *is* part of a game we all play, but another part of that game is preventing the other guys from doing it while you continue to do it yourself. It's not hypocrisy, it's national defense.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:45 PM   #139
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What truly free and open democratic election have we attempted to influence?
Israel recently just for starters dumbass.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:46 PM   #140
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It's interesting watching a switch in narrative happen in real time. We've gone from "Trump colluded with the Russians" to "Trump isn't hard enough on other countries that attempt to influence our elections" in the drop of Mueller's indictments being released.

All I've really learned is that Trump is the answer to what is wrong, no matter what the question is.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:48 PM   #141
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A few people won't admit that Russia is an adversary so Kotter thinks that's a good reason to play the fool.
When one of those people is the current POTUS, who's really the fool?

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Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
It's interesting watching a switch in narrative happen in real time. We've gone from "Trump colluded with the Russians" to "Trump isn't hard enough on other countries that attempt to influence our elections" in the drop of Mueller's indictments being released.

All I've really learned is that Trump is the answer to what is wrong, no matter what the question is.
It's no switch; we are merely awaiting, patiently, the full report....and outcome of Mueller's investigation....which is on-going...much to the chagrin of the Trumpbots in here.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:48 PM   #142
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It *is* part of a game we all play, but another part of that game is preventing the other guys from doing it while you continue to do it yourself. It's not hypocrisy, it's national defense.
Oh I get that, better than Obama apparently.

I just think its hilarious when people make comments like " Do you not believe Russia tried to interfere in our election!" like that's proof of anything other than Russia tried to interfere in our last election. Like we have interfered in theirs in the past.

The US has the #1 most technologically advanced cyber warfare system on the planet. Hell we are way better at this stuff than Russia I am sure.

This isn't new information, its just that we finally actually got pissed and did something about it publicly apparently.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:49 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
When one of those people is the current POTUS, who's really the fool?
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Wait, so you knew it was Russia all along?
So are you going to answer this question or not?
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:58 PM   #144
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Still waiting for an answer Kotter.
No...nor do we yet "know" it was only "Russia" all along; I'll be surprised if some in the Trump campaign weren't involved...but will accept Mueller's verdict. I'll await Mueller's final report, which he isn't close to issuing yet (from all appearances...) before passing judgement....as opposed to those of you who are convinced you already KNOW the conclusion.

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So are you going to answer this question or not?
If you'd read my comments carefully, you'd already have known my answer...keep up, dude.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:03 PM   #145
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No...nor do we yet "know" it was only "Russia" all along; I'll be surprised if some in the Trump campaign weren't involved...but will accept Mueller's verdict. I'll await Mueller's final report, which he isn't close to issuing yet (from all appearances...) before passing judgement....as opposed to those of you who are convinced you already KNOW the conclusion.



If you'd read my comments carefully, you'd already have known my answer...keep up, dude.
You are the one who claimed you weren't surprised idiot Trumpsters fell for Russian propaganda but you have now said you didn't know it was Russia either.

Do you not understand what that implies?
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:10 PM   #146
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So I will put you down for the "I'm okay with Russian propaganda being used to influence our election outcomes" column...
You've already been put down for 'I applaud distortion and distension of the legal process beyond evidentiary justification, so long it makes my partisan enemies scurry and squirm.'
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:27 PM   #147
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You are the one who claimed you weren't surprised idiot Trumpsters fell for Russian propaganda but you have now said you didn't know it was Russia either.

Do you not understand what that implies?
You misunderstand....I felt strongly Russia was involved, and believed they had tried to influence the election--and I suspect with cooperation from the Trump campaign. What I didn't do was fall for all the lying and deceitful propaganda that Trumpsters lapped up, to convince themselves of voting for someone who is clearly in way over his head...including probable collusion.

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You've already been put down for 'I applaud distortion and distension of the legal process beyond evidentiary justification, so long it makes my partisan enemies scurry and squirm.'
Your characterization of distortion and distention applies much more aptly to those who continue to believe Trump's campaign was not colluding on some level with the Russians...than to the Congressionally authorized investigation which is on-going....
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:30 PM   #148
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You misunderstand....I felt strongly Russia was involved, and believed they had tried to influence the election. What I didn't do was fall for all the lying and deceitful propaganda that Trumpsters lapped up, to convince themselves of voting for someone who is clearly in way over his head....


Its now 2:30pm CST on 2/18/2018, and Donald J Trump is STILL your President

Sorry!
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:34 PM   #149
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Its now 2:30pm CST on 2/18/2018, and Donald J Trump is STILL your President

Sorry!
Yes, yes....I know. Investigations and the wheels of justice move slowly...enjoy the time you have...
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:39 PM   #150
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Its now 2:30pm CST on 2/18/2018, and Donald J Trump is STILL your President

Sorry!
What is hilarious is that we apparently fell for a bunch of propaganda that convinced us to vote for a guy who is doing exactly what he said he was going to do once he was elected.

That's some 4D level trickery right there.
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