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Old 02-17-2018, 12:38 PM  
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Mueller Destroys "total hoax," "made-up story," and "greatest witch hunt" Lies

Guess Trump can now stop spouting his lies about Russian interference in the election, eh?

Even Trump's National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster responds to the indictments of 13 Russian nationals for their roles in attempted meddling in the 2016 election, saying evidence of Russian interference is "incontrovertible."


https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/polit...sel/index.html

Robert Mueller just made it impossible for Trump to call the special counsel probe a 'total hoax'

Analysis by Chris Cillizza, CNN Editor-at-large

On Friday afternoon, the Justice Department announced that special counsel Robert Mueller had indicted 13 Russian nationals for their roles in attempted meddling in the 2016 election.

Most of these people do not live in the United States, and you can bet your bottom dollar that Russia won't be extraditing them any time soon. But that's not the point.
The point is this: The indictments of a baker's dozen of Russians gives us a very clear window into not only the depth and breadth of the Mueller investigation, but also makes crystal clear what the Russians wanted in the 2016 election and the elaborate measures they undertook to make it happen.

This paragraph stands out:

"Defendant ORGANIZATION had a strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Defendants posted derogatory information about a number of candidates, and by early to mid-2016, Defendants' operations included supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump ("Trump Campaign") and disparaging Hillary Clinton. Defendants made various expenditures to carry out those activities, including buying political advertisements on social media in the names of U.S. persons and entities. Defendants also staged political rallies inside the United States, and while posing as U.S. grassroots entities and U.S. persons, and without revealing their Russian identities and ORGANIZATION affiliation, solicited and compensated real U.S. persons to promote or disparage candidates. Some Defendants, posing as U.S. persons and without revealing their Russian association, communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities."

OK. So what we know from that paragraph of the charging documents, which you can read in full here, is this:
  • By "early to mid-2016," Russians had decided to use whatever means at their disposal to help Donald Trump win.
  • The Russians bought political ads on social media sites and organized political rallies to achieve those goals.
  • Russians, disguising their identities, "communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump campaign" in an attempt to "coordinate political activities."
  • None of that is a smoking gun of collusion.
  • "Unwitting" members of Trumpworld working with Russians, who didn't identify themselves as Russians, is not the same as a willful effort on behalf of members of the Trump campaign to actively collude with the Russian government.
  • But what this latest set of indictments proves beyond a shadow of a doubt is that, yes, Russia staged an aggressive and elaborate effort to influence the 2016 election.
  • This was a multi-pronged campaign -- social media, in-person meetings, political rallies -- by the Russians to beat Hillary Clinton and elect Donald Trump. It employed hundreds of people.
  • That analysis, of course, jibes with the unanimous conclusion of the intelligence community in 2017 that Russia actively sought to influence the 2016 election in support of Trump.
  • What it runs directly counter to is Trump's ongoing -- and persistent -- attempts to cast the entire special counsel investigation as nothing more than a politically motivated sideshow.

    Here's a sampling of Trump's recent tweets touching on Mueller's investigation.
  • "This memo totally vindicates 'Trump' in probe. But the Russian Witch Hunt goes on and on. Their was no Collusion and there was no Obstruction (the word now used because, after one year of looking endlessly and finding NOTHING, collusion is dead)." (2/3/18)
  • "The single greatest Witch Hunt in American history continues. There was no collusion, everybody including the Dems knows there was no collusion, & yet on and on it goes. Russia & the world is laughing at the stupidity they are witnessing. Republicans should finally take control!" (1/10/18)
  • "The Russia-Trump collusion story is a total hoax, when will this taxpayer funded charade end?" (5/8/17)

There's lots (and lots) more tweets and quotes just like that from the President. Trump has suggested the attempted election hacking could have been perpetrated by China or even as a "guy sitting on their bed who weighs 400 pounds."

You get the idea. Despite the unanimous conclusion of the intelligence community -- including Trump's CIA Director Mike Pompeo and his FBI Director Christopher Wray -- that Russia engaged in a coordinated effort to meddle in the 2017 election, Trump still wasn't convinced.

Of course, this changes nothing when it comes to how Trump will respond. Even Friday afternoon, Trump tweeted about the Russian indictments, once again beating the "no collusion" drum.

"Russia started their anti-US campaign in 2014, long before I announced that I would run for President," Trump tweeted. "The results of the election were not impacted. The Trump campaign did nothing wrong - no collusion!"

But if it was very hard to hold the Trumpian position -- it might have been Russia, it might have been someone else! -- with a shred of intellectual honesty prior to Friday, it's impossible now.

Consider what the Mueller investigation has already done:
  • Former national security adviser Michael Flynn has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russians during the 2016 campaign and is cooperating with the Mueller investigation.
  • Former foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russians during the 2016 campaign and is cooperating with the Mueller investigation.
  • Former deputy campaign chairman Rick Gates is reportedly on the verge of signing a plea agreement and cooperating with Mueller. Gates faces a variety of charges, including money laundering and other financial crimes.
  • Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort faces a variety of charges of financial crimes
  • 13 Russians have been indicted on participating in a broad-scale attempt to throw the election to Trump.

That is not the stuff of witch hunts and hoaxes. Those are real-life charges which carry at least the possibility of real jail time.

And they all make a simple point: It's long past time for Trump to stop name-calling an investigation that has uncovered a massive effort for a foreign government to meddle in a US presidential election.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:42 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Yes, yes....I know. Investigations and the wheels of justice move slowly...enjoy the time you have...
You people have made parodies of yourselves

The longer you cling to these delusions, the harder your fall will be
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:48 PM   #152
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What is hilarious is that we apparently fell for a bunch of propaganda that convinced us to vote for a guy who is doing exactly what he said he was going to do once he was elected.

That's some 4D level trickery right there.
Their irrational hatred is pathological, it goes beyond all normal bounds

They not only hate him, but they hate people like ourselves for voting for him... patteeu says not to give in to despair, but I honestly dont see things being 'normal' again

They're being this way now, so I look forward to unleashing every dirty smear and trick we can dream up on the next dem president
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:04 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
Their irrational hatred is pathological, it goes beyond all normal bounds

They not only hate him, but they hate people like ourselves for voting for him... patteeu says not to give in to despair, but I honestly dont see things being 'normal' again

They're being this way now, so I look forward to unleashing every dirty smear and trick we can dream up on the next dem president
It's adorable that you think Obama got a free pass. The dude was savaged by the right on a daily basis. Your main disappointment seems to be that the majority of the press didn't buy it and join in--because most of it was horse shit. The blatantly racist attacks, the Birther bullshit, the constant obstructionism...and the GOP seems surprised somehow. And character--a night and day difference. You reap what you sow. What Obama did for the most part, was ignore much of it and rise above it....which is something Trump is incapable of, it would seem. How Presidential...

Trump on the other hand...has handed the press a script nearly every day of shit to lambaste him with. If he'd only shut his mouth, stop tweeting stupid shit, and follow the advice of some of his handlers....I think you'd be shocked at how much of it would go away. The dude is his own worst enemy. Unfortunately, he's dug his own grave and is unlikely to get out of it at this point....
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:04 PM   #154
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To be perfectly honest, I hate sounding the way I do on here sometimes... I'm a pretty mellow and easy to get along with guy in real life

But man, the Trump hysteria has just about driven me over the edge, it is WAY over the top 24/7 365

TV, the internet, the Planet... it doesnt matter, escaping the mania is impossible
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:08 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
No...nor do we yet "know" it was only "Russia" all along; I'll be surprised if some in the Trump campaign weren't involved...but will accept Mueller's verdict. I'll await Mueller's final report, which he isn't close to issuing yet (from all appearances...) before passing judgement....as opposed to those of you who are convinced you already KNOW the conclusion.
This thread is filled with posts from you pretending to KNOW the conclusion. GTFO
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:13 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
To be perfectly honest, I hate sounding the way I do on here sometimes... I'm a pretty mellow and easy to get along with guy in real life

But man, the Trump hysteria has just about driven me over the edge, it is WAY over the top 24/7 365

TV, the internet, the Planet... it doesnt matter, escaping the mania is impossible
If you go back in the archives....I was no big fan of Obama. I haven't enthusiastically supported a President's actual administration in a long time; Obama was disappointing in many ways. but the dude was at least earnest and dignified, and had integrity. He didn't behave like a petulant 4 yr old child. Don't pretend that Obama didn't face the same sort of bullshit from his critics; it's simply that most of it was complete bullshit....people turned their policy disagreements into personal assaults. And the press didn't go along with that silliness. So let's not pretend it didn't happen--you just didn't have the press there to document it, because he didn't feed into it like Trump does, on a daily basis almost even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
This thread is filled with posts from you pretending to KNOW the conclusion. GTFO
I think I know, but I sure as hell don't know...not nearly the same way as these azzholes who "know" there was no collusion....so try again. I may be wrong. The other side can't admit that.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:18 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
I think I know, but I sure as hell don't know...not nearly the same way as these azzholes who "know" there was no collusion....so try again. I may be wrong. The other side can't admit that.
That's not the face-saving distinction you must think it is.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:19 PM   #158
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If you go back in the archives....I was no big fan of Obama[/B]. I haven't enthusiastically supported a President's actual administration in a long time; Obama was disappointing in many ways. but the dude was at least earnest and dignified, and had integrity. He didn't behave like a petulant 4 yr old child. Don't pretend that Obama didn't face the same sort of bullshit from his critics; it's simply that most of it was complete bullshit....people turned their policy disagreements into personal assaults. And the press didn't go along with that silliness. So let's not pretend it didn't happen--you just didn't have the press there to document it, because he didn't feed into it like Trump does, on a daily basis almost even.



I think I know, but I sure as hell don't know...not nearly the same way as these azzholes who "know" there was no collusion....so try again. I may be wrong. The other side can't admit that.
That's ridiculous
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:20 PM   #159
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Yes
Only problem is Barrack Hussein Obama was in office during the attempted election meddling and his administration would have been the only people who could of responded to this intrusion. Candidate Trump wasn't in a position (yet) to do anything about it.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:24 PM   #160
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If you go back in the archives....I was no big fan of Obama. I haven't enthusiastically supported a President's actual administration in a long time; Obama was disappointing in many ways. but the dude was at least earnest and dignified, and had integrity. He didn't behave like a petulant 4 yr old child. Don't pretend that Obama didn't face the same sort of bullshit from his critics; it's simply that most of it was complete bullshit....people turned their policy disagreements into personal assaults. So let's not pretend it didn't happen--you just didn't have the press there to document it, because he didn't feed into it like Trump does, on a daily basis almost even.
Obama got it in the same measure as Bush, yes they both took heat every single day in office... but any honest assessment reveals that it has taken on another dimension with Trump

You're going to blame Trump himself for that

I'm going to blame entitled American attitudes, the media, and the entrenched bureaucracy for it
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:26 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
Obama got it in the same measure as Bush, yes they both took heat every single day in office... but any honest assessment reveals that it has taken on another dimension with Trump

You're going to blame Trump himself for that

I'm going to blame entitled American attitudes, the media, and the entrenched bureaucracy for it
No, it's all on them. 110%.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:26 PM   #162
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Obama got it in the same measure as Bush, yes they both took heat every single day in office... but any honest assessment reveals that it has taken on another dimension with Trump

You're going to blame Trump himself for that
It's possible that Trump's affronts as President are of a different tenor than his predecessor.

The President would take on much of the blame for any increase in criticism under that scenario.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:35 PM   #163
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It's possible that Trump's affronts as President are of a different tenor than his predecessor.

The President would take on much of the blame for any increase in criticism under that scenario.
What your side views as an affront, doesnt jibe with what the other side thinks in most instances
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:52 PM   #164
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What your side views as an affront, doesnt jibe with what the other side thinks in most instances
Well I won't speak for anybody but myself.

I think Bush was a catastrophic president, the likes of which we are still recovering from.

Trump, so far, is a really incompetent, stupid one.

I don't think either of those are particularly controversial takes.

Trump is pretty lousy, but it's hard to beat two catastrophic wars and cratering the economy.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:55 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
...

You're going to blame Trump himself for that

I'm going to blame entitled American attitudes, the media, and the entrenched bureaucracy for it
Unless the Always-and-forever Trumpers can get past this simple little fact--Trump is mostly the blame for most of his own problems, the GOP should forfeit any pretense of owning the mantra as the party of personal responsibility. That use to be something I admired about the GOP--but clearly it's going, if not already gone.

If Trump and his supporters can't admit something as crystal clear as he is his own worst enemy--due to the half-truths, the demagoguery, the insults, the stupid tweets, the arrogance and narcissism, the inability to admit he made a mistake or to apologize when he screws up....then, sadly, it's going to be nearly impossible to find any sort of way out of this. So I won't be holding my breath either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
It's possible that Trump's affronts as President are of a different tenor than his predecessor.

The President would take on much of the blame for any increase in criticism under that scenario.
Exactly right....bingo
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