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Old 12-28-2008, 11:06 AM  
RNR RNR is offline
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Hamas called down the thunder

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Never go to the parking lot unless you are ready to fight. If you do, you may get your ass kicked. These jackoffs asked for it and now they are getting it.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:12 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Dude, get this straight.
For the third time. I am not a dude. And don't be rude.

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The people of Palestine ELECTED Hamas. I do not give a **** about anything else. Doesn't matter what Bush did or did not do. When presented the opprtunity, the people of Palestine chose to put terrorists in charge.
You have a simple minded view of the politics there. What choices did they have when corrupt Fatah was running. It's almost like our elections.

Still Hamas played to the reality of politics there, even wanted to extend the truce and was willing to settle for a 2 state deal so long as it was based on 1967 borders. It's been a damn war there for how long now?

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And secondly, this war was going on long before Bush ever stepped in the WH. For that matter, this war was going on before there even was a WH. So let's just put this bullshit aside that Israel and Palestine are not getting along because of W. I believe it was Araafat that walked out on Clinton's talks as well.
That's right. But Bush was the moron for demanding elections. I'll get the script for you too.

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It is just a convenient argument to blame the big, bad, Americans for all the world's ills, regardless of factual history.
Generalities will not do here. I did not blame the Americans. Americans aren't their govt and are divided on this issue. Most Rs supporting and most men. It was stupid to allow elections there. It was Bush major theme of his time to promote democracy in the ME. That just hands things over to the radicals. It's stupid.

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The people of Palestine could protest for a peacful solution, but instead they do things like fake funerals and do everything else to incite violence against Israel. If Israel wanted to wipe Palestine off the map it would be gone. And I would argue the only reason that has not happened is because mean America hold Israel back from doing just that.
It's a conflict that has not been resolved.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:15 PM   #272
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Here ya' go dood. No foresight and no contingency plans.

Muhammad Dahlan was director of the Palestinian Authority’s most feared paramilitary force, the Preventive Security Service, Dahlan arrested some 2,000 Hamas members in 1996 in the Gaza Strip after the group launched a wave of suicide bombings. He was a friend of the Bush administration and has worked with our CIA and FBI.



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“Everyone was against the elections,” Dahlan says. Everyone except Bush. “Bush decided, ‘I need an election. I want elections in the Palestinian Authority.’ Everyone is following him in the American administration, and everyone is nagging Abbas, telling him, ‘The president wants elections.’ Fine. For what purpose?”

The elections went forward as scheduled. On January 25, Hamas won 56 percent of the seats in the Legislative Council.

Few inside the U.S. administration had predicted the result, and there was no contingency plan to deal with it. “I’ve asked why nobody saw it coming,” Condoleezza Rice told reporters. “I don’t know anyone who wasn’t caught off guard by Hamas’s strong showing.”

“Everyone blamed everyone else,” says an official with the Department of Defense. “We sat there in the Pentagon and said, ‘Who the **** recommended this?’ ”

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...urrentPage=all
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:18 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Again, you seem to be mad cause Hamas brought a knife to a gun fight.
I thought you were the angry one. You shouted at me first. Angry white man vote.

Psst. I am not angry. I just think it's not being reported as accurately as thought...and I see both sides doing things wrong. I also see it in a more neutral light, since I'm a non-interventionist. Just clarifying.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:18 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
For the third time. I am not a dude. And don't be rude.


You have a simple minded view of the politics there. What choices did they have when corrupt Fatah was running. It's almost like our elections.

Still Hamas played to the reality of politics there, even wanted to extend the truce and was willing to settle for a 2 state deal so long as it was based on 1967 borders. It's been a damn war there for how long now?


That's right. But Bush was the moron for demanding elections. I'll get the script for you too.


Generalities will not do here. I did not blame the Americans. Americans aren't their govt and are divided on this issue. Most Rs supporting and most men. It was stupid to allow elections there. It was Bush major theme of his time to promote democracy in the ME. That just hands things over to the radicals. It's stupid.



It's a conflict that has not been resolved.

Translation: You don't like Bush so this is all his fault. The people of Palestine bear no responsibilty in your eyes and it is a damn shame they have to pick a fight with a country that can kick their ass all over the place.

Bush did a lot of stupid things. The elections were trivial and irrelevant as there was war prior to them and post-election as well.

Are you trying to sell that if Bush had not wanted elections there then there would be no current conflict??

Sorry, I do not care for Bush either but you seem to blame him for any and everything, regardless. People are responsible for their own actions. It is sad that you do not want to hold the Palestinians accountable as you want too others.

Bush is not making Hamas do any of this. They are doing it themselves.

And you want a newsflas??? Even if there were no elections, Hamas would still be launching rockets into Israel. I am sure that pains you to admit to yourself.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:19 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I thought you were the angry one. You shouted at me first. Angry white man vote.

Psst. I am not angry. I just think it's not being reported as accurately as thought...and I see both sides doing things wrong. I also see it in a more neutral light, since I'm a non-interventionist. Just clarifying.
I disagree with that, You are accusing us of filtering our media, i.e. lying for Israel, but by the same token expecting us to believe that everything the Palestinians say is accurate.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:23 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Muhammad Dahlan was director of the Palestinian Authority’s most feared paramilitary force, the Preventive Security Service, Dahlan arrested some 2,000 Hamas members in 1996 in the Gaza Strip after the group launched a wave of suicide bombings. He was a friend of the Bush administration and has worked with our CIA and FBI.
What you seem to refuse to understand is the elections did not matter. There was war between the two countries before the elections and no reason to believe there would not be after, regardless of who won or even whether there were elections or not.

You are trying to lay 1000's of years of religous-based war at the feet of Bush.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:26 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Translation: You don't like Bush so this is all his fault.
Ayup! The typical default argument of a hard-line partisan Bush supporter. So you LOVE Bush and think he can do no wrong. I just think he's stupid on this.

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The people of Palestine bear no responsibilty in your eyes and it is a damn shame they have to pick a fight with a country that can kick their ass all over the place.
I think you need to bone up on your history of the ME. Besides the people of Gaza live an gulag. So blame the slaves.

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Bush did a lot of stupid things. The elections were trivial and irrelevant as there was war prior to them and post-election as well.
In your opinion they're trivial. They only have resulted in some major repercussions.

Of course the conflict was long before...but at least Bush Sr's administration was willing to call Israel out when needed unlike this one. We do often tell them what to do. And we are remaining silent on this.

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Are you trying to sell that if Bush had not wanted elections there then there would be no current conflict??
Go ahead and mischaracterize my stand. I never said that.

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Sorry, I do not care for Bush either but you seem to blame him for any and everything, regardless.
That's a lie. I went over this with you several days ago. Go ahead, when you have no facts to refute go after the person instead. That's intellectually bankrupt.

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People are responsible for their own actions. It is sad that you do not want to hold the Palestinians accountable as you want too others.
I hold both accountable but can see that things don't happen in a void. That actions and politics lead up to such outbreaks. You just can't go back to land 2000 years later that one has been gone from, have an imperial nation declare a govt on it and expect no conflict...and then argue about how one side's weapons are immoral. Particularly when those same people at one time lived in peace. It's a standard land dispute. Crack a history book instead of learning history for US media lapdogs.

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Bush is not making Hamas do any of this. They are doing it themselves.
No one made Israel, enact a blockade either. That's an act of war.

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And you want a newsflas??? Even if there were no elections, Hamas would still be launching rockets into Israel. I am sure that pains you to admit to yourself.
I said, I see this as a conflict between two groups that has never resolved. That happens in a war.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:30 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
I disagree with that, You are accusing us of filtering our media, i.e. lying for Israel, but by the same token expecting us to believe that everything the Palestinians say is accurate.
Geez! Even in an American court of law the testimony of witnesses is considered part of the evidence. There's two sides to a story...and then there's the truth.

BTW my sources have not come from Palestinians.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:32 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Ayup! The typical default argument of a hard-line partisan Bush supporter. So you LOVE Bush and think he can do no wrong. I just think he's stupid on this.


I think you need to bone up on your history of the ME. Besides the people of Gaza live an gulag. So blame the slaves.


In your opinion they're trivial. They only have resulted in some major repercussions.

Of course the conflict was long before...but at least Bush Sr's administration was willing to call Israel out when needed unlike this one. We do often tell them what to do. And we are remaining silent on this.


Go ahead and mischaracterize my stand. I never said that.


That's a lie. I went over this with you several days ago. Go ahead, when you have no facts to refute go after the person instead. That's intellectually bankrupt.


I hold both accountable but can see that things don't happen in a void. That actions and politics lead up to such outbreaks. You just can't go back to land 2000 years later that one has been gone from, have an imperial nation declare a govt on it and expect no conflict...and then argue about how one side's weapons are immoral. Particularly when those same people at one time lived in peace. It's a standard land dispute. Crack a history book instead of learning history for US media lapdogs.


No one made Israel, enact a blockade either. That's an act of war.


I said, I see this as a conflict between two groups that has never resolved. That happens in a war.
You are holding one side accountable and blaming Bush for everything. Then assuming I am a Bush lover to boost your argument.

And why does Egypt and Jordan and Syria allow the Palestinians to live in hovels?

I think it is you that needs to bone up on history.

You keep talking about this blockade being an act of war, and what you fail to understand is the two sides have been at war for 1000's of years.

And speaking of cracking a history book, the imperial nation you so love to blame did not draw the boundries. That would be the UN. And that has been pointed out to you several times but you refuse to aknowledge history cause if ****s up your blaming Bush.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:34 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
What you seem to refuse to understand is the elections did not matter. There was war between the two countries before the elections and no reason to believe there would not be after, regardless of who won or even whether there were elections or not.

You are trying to lay 1000's of years of religous-based war at the feet of Bush.
No I'm blaming Bush for promoting democracy in the ME which will just get the radicals elected. Lol!
Keep mischaracterizing it though.

I don't consider this a religious based war, I consider it a typical land dispute that is occuring between two groups, one of which is religious. Most modern Jews are atheists or agnostics. A smaller percentage are religious. Think it's like 20%. Just a fact. The religious aspect is among dispensationalist protestants in America who see Israel as the Messiah. So they need Armageddon so the Jews will convert. Thus they defend Israel at all costs. So I like to point out what the other side does. Even Coulter is on record as saying they are " perfecting Jews." Isn't that nice.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:34 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Geez! Even in an American court of law the testimony of witnesses is considered part of the evidence. There's two sides to a story...and then there's the truth.

BTW my sources have not come from Palestinians.
I don't care what your sources are. If Palestine so wanted peace they would make Israel look like shit by protesting peacfuly in the streets for a peacful resolution.

Somehow blowing up pizza parlors full of innocents doesn't come across that way though.

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Old 01-04-2009, 05:36 PM   #282
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I don't consider this a religious based war
That is your problem, right there. The Palestinians DO consider it a religous based war. Therefore what you consider it to be is irrelevant. Maybe that shocks you to realize that they are not fighting this war based on your opinions???

And to correct your history again, the radicals WERE in charge prior to the elections. Or are we pretending Araafat was a saint now?

PErhaps you would be happy if we just disengaged totally and let the Israeli's do whatever they wish?
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:46 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
You are holding one side accountable and blaming Bush for everything. Then assuming I am a Bush lover to boost your argument.
You mean you don't like a taste of your own medicine?

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And why does Egypt and Jordan and Syria allow the Palestinians to live in hovels?
I don't know. Not sure I care. I believe it's because they are refugees. Been to Egypt which has made peace with Israel and is our ally. Tell Bush to call them out about it.

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I think it is you that needs to bone up on history.
Nope sorry not when compared to you. I went through both sides stories after 9/11, read about Lawrence of Arabia, rented the movie, and read books on the history of the area vis a vis the West because I felt like the media just wasn't doing it.

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You keep talking about this blockade being an act of war, and what you fail to understand is the two sides have been at war for 1000's of years.
There was a cease fire though. And it's not just my personal opinion that a blockade is an act of war...that's been the consensus for a while.

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And speaking of cracking a history book, the imperial nation you so love to blame did not draw the boundries. That would be the UN. And that has been pointed out to you several times but you refuse to aknowledge history cause if ****s up your blaming Bush.
The UN terminated the British Mandate which was prior. It was the French and the British that had plans to carve up the middle east during WWI— the war of empires and the war that is responsible for the ME conflict ( as well as others). It was Britain's Balfour Declaration of 1917, a classified formal statement of policy by the British government stating that the British government goal of national home for the Jewish people in Palestine. Balfour was Rothschild's man in parliament who funded the war for GB. It was payback. He had already bought land in the area previously which I've no problem with...as that was peaceful and both peoples lived side by side peacefully too. All it takes is getting a govt involved. Govt is usually the problem.

Don't forget Great Britain made 2 sets of conflicting promises to two different groups of people: Arabs and Jews. They promised the Arabs their self determination and land back if they would help them fight the Ottomans who were allies of Germany. Then they did a classic bait and switch. That'd piss anybody off especially in an era post the wws when nationalism was on the rise everywhere.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:48 PM   #284
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The Jews took the 'moral high ground' once before; around 1939-1945 in and around Europe... it was not what you'd call a win. 6 million dead, if you needed a refresher.
The pre-WWII Jews were victims alright. But please don't compare the two situations lest you sound ridiculous. The Jews in Europe were IN NO POSITION to practice moral high ground. Any comparison of that to how today's Israel operates or should operate is totally absurd.


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There is no 'moral high ground' when you're surrounded. It's one thing for the United States to take the high ground, esp. in the wake of an event like 9/11. North America is isolated. Israel is like a mongoose in a pit full of cobras.


The Holocaust was committed by the Europeans and then Europeans, out of concern for the Jews, decided to "compensate" them. How? By getting them out of their own hair and dumping them on Palestinians. Pretty convenient! Then the U.S. builds them up to bully status at the cost to American Taxpayers of almost half a Billion dollars a month. So would you tell me were the Palestinians figure in this?
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:51 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You mean you don't like a taste of your own medicine?


I don't know. Not sure I care. I believe it's because they are refugees. Been to Egypt which has made peace with Israel and is our ally. Tell Bush to call them out about it.


Nope sorry not when compared to you. I went through both sides stories after 9/11, read about Lawrence of Arabia, rented the movie, and read books on the history of the area vis a vis the West because I felt like the media just wasn't doing it.


There as a cease fire though. And it's not just my personal opinion that a blockade is an act of war...that's been the consensus for a while.


The UN terminated the British Mandate which was prior. It was the French and the British that had plans to carve up the middle east during WWI— the war of empires and the war that is responsible for the ME conflict ( as well as others). It was Britain's Balfour Declaration of 1917, a classified formal statement of policy by the British government stating that the British government of national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.

Don't forget Great Britain made 2 sets of conflicting promises to two different groups of people: Arabs and Jews. They promised the Arabs their self determination and land back if they would help them fight the Ottomans who were allies of Germany. Then they did a classic bait and switch. That'd piss anybody off especially in an era post the wws when nationalism was on the rise everywhere.

OMG you rented a movie? I stand down.....

You really need to read before you spout off, cause you are answering questions that were never asked. I never said it was YOUR opinion a blockade was an act of war. Pay attention. What I said was the "act of war" did not ignite anything new as the war has been going on for centuries.

And you are all over the place....

You just want to slam Bush for all this is what it keeps coming down too. You don't care about the Palestinians, as you have stated, you just want to blame Bush for something else.

And what if Bush called them out? WTF are we to tell them what to do? You are pissed because Bush told Palestine what to do, allegedly, but by the same token you want him to tell Israel what to do.

And you were saying something about imperial nations????

I am done for a while, your talking in circles is making me dizzy. Could be the beer too, it is football Sunday.
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