Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy - Page 2

Hammock Parties · 03-09-2006, 08:24 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/08/fa....ap/index.html

Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy

Lawsuit seeks right to decline financial responsibility for kids

NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.
'This is so politically incorrect'

Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."

Matt Dubay contends his ex-girlfriend assured him she was unable to get pregnant.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic

In any pregnancy, from unprotected sex or just an unplanned pregnancy, there are two parties involved in conception. Two guilty parties. Women [I am talking in broad, general terms]always act like the man is the bastard for making them pregnant, and usually want to disavow any responsibility in reaching that state themselves.

stupid statement.

ChiefsFanatic · 03-09-2006, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

stupid statement.

Coming from a woman, I would expect no less. You may be different, but I doubt it.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 10:19 AM

I don't believe you've ever met a woman.

ChiefsFanatic · 03-09-2006, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

stupid statement.

So, if you were dating a guy, became pregnant unexpectedly and he wanted you to have an abortion because he did not want to be a father, you would say "Sure honey", or would you say "Thanks for nothing, I'll raise this baby myself, with the help of your child support check every month."

Or, if he wanted the child and you did not, you would go through with the pregnancy for his sake?

ChiefsFanatic · 03-09-2006, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

I don't believe you've ever met a woman.

Very witty.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 10:24 AM

I'm saying the last guy I slept with knew from day 1 where I stood on getting pregnant, on abortion, on responsibility, and on birth control. And I'm pretty sure he know full well what I'd expect from him now, 2 years from now, or 10 years from now.

But lets say I didn't want a baby. Would never happen. I love babies. But if I was pregnant, didn't want to raise it, and the man did?...

Sure.

But I get pregnant and you think a man should have the ability to force my body through an abortion?

You're sick.

ChiefsFanatic · 03-09-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

But I get pregnant and you think a man should have the ability to force my body through an abortion?

You're sick.

Absolutely not. If you think that is what I thought, then I am sorry. What I do think in that situation, is the man should have the right to decline financial and emotional support.

As long as the man did not agree to the pregnancy prior to conception, he should have the same rights or options as the woman.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 10:30 AM

Why? It's not equal work or labor.

jspchief · 03-09-2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

The guy doesn't have to be pregnant.

The guy's "out" is contraceptives or abstinance.

And be happy for it.

The girl's out is to close her fucking legs too.

You're missing the point. It takes two to make a baby. One of those two has all the say in what to do with the baby they make, the other just opens his wallet.

Personally, I agree with Simplex's take. If one person doesn't want the baby, then that person shouldn't be financially responsible. Until they ban adoption and abortion, the current rules are fucked up.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 10:36 AM

Oh gosh. How could I miss that it takes 2 to make a baby?

As soon as you guys figure out how to stop people from lying or changing their minds, you can start worrying about legal rights.

jspchief · 03-09-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

Oh gosh. How could I miss that it takes 2 to make a baby?

As soon as you guys figure out how to stop people from lying or changing their minds, you can start worrying about legal rights.

Yea, like to stop a woman from telling a man she's infertile or on birth control, when she really isn't?

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 10:38 AM

Yes! Like that.

Inspector · 03-09-2006, 10:39 AM

Don't know how it is nowadays, but in the past the person who was wrong was easy to determine.

They had penises.

Maybe it's different now.

ChiefsFanatic · 03-09-2006, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

Why? It's not equal work or labor.

I can say from experience that pregnancy, child birth, and raising a child, is equal work and equal labor for both the man and the woman. For a good man, anyway.

Because I did not suffer from carrying the baby, doesn't mean that I didn't suffer. I just love getting up at 3AM, just to go get some food that she craved, just to have her change her mind by the time I got back. Or, clean up morning sickness, etc.

Just because I did not suffer physical pain during birth, does not mean I did not suffer. The emotional pain of watching someone you love deeply, in extreme physical pain, and not being able to do anything to ease the suffering, should not be taken lightly. Not to mention broken bones in my hand.

Saying that a man should not have the right to decline fatherhood, like a woman can decline motherhood, based on the fact that the pregnancy is carried out by the woman, is lame.

I hope you have a great day, Katipan.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 10:43 AM

Thanks. But all of that was nothing compared to what her body went through.

I'm talking legal rights. You should have none over her.

03-09-2006, 08:24 AM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4760478	Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/08/fa....ap/index.html Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy Lawsuit seeks right to decline financial responsibility for kids NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child. The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter. The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause. The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose. "There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly." Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan. Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant. Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail. "What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started." State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case. "The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said. Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said. 'This is so politically incorrect' Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion. "Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized." Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt. "Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say." "The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility." Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child. "If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative." The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter. "None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child." Matt Dubay contends his ex-girlfriend assured him she was unable to get pregnant.
Posts: 277,607

03-09-2006, 10:19 AM	#18
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2790351	I don't believe you've ever met a woman. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,608

03-09-2006, 10:24 AM	#21
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2790351	I'm saying the last guy I slept with knew from day 1 where I stood on getting pregnant, on abortion, on responsibility, and on birth control. And I'm pretty sure he know full well what I'd expect from him now, 2 years from now, or 10 years from now. But lets say I didn't want a baby. Would never happen. I love babies. But if I was pregnant, didn't want to raise it, and the man did?... Sure. But I get pregnant and you think a man should have the ability to force my body through an abortion? You're sick. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,608

03-09-2006, 10:30 AM	#23
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2790351	Why? It's not equal work or labor. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,608

03-09-2006, 10:36 AM	#25
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2790351	Oh gosh. How could I miss that it takes 2 to make a baby? As soon as you guys figure out how to stop people from lying or changing their minds, you can start worrying about legal rights. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,608

03-09-2006, 10:38 AM	#27
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2790351	Yes! Like that. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,608

03-09-2006, 10:39 AM	#28
Inspector MVP Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: K.C. Casino cash: $9924975	Don't know how it is nowadays, but in the past the person who was wrong was easy to determine. They had penises. Maybe it's different now.
Posts: 7,907

03-09-2006, 10:43 AM	#30
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2790351	Thanks. But all of that was nothing compared to what her body went through. I'm talking legal rights. You should have none over her. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,608