Chiefs The offensive line and Pioli's "track record". - Page 4

htismaqe · 05-08-2009, 10:41 AM

I keep seeing posts complaining about the lack of offensive linemen taken in the draft and comments like "The Patriots built up their OL and DL and won the Super Bowl".

Until now I hadn't done much research, but seemed to remember that their actual draft history with offensive linemen wasn't that great. So I did a little digging and here's what I found.

Let's start with the starting offensive lines (LT-RT) during Pioli's tenure:

2008 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur
2007 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur
2006 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur
2005 - Kaczur, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Ashworth
2004 - Light, Andruzzi, Koppen, Neal, Gorin
2003 - Light, Woody, Koppen, Andruzzi, Ashworth
2002 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Jones
2001 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Randall
2000 - Armstrong, Andruzzi, Woody, Isaia, Williams

And now their OL draft picks during Pioli's tenure:

2000 - Adrian Klemm, G, 2nd
2000 - Greg Randall, T, 4th
2001 - Matt Light, T, 2nd
2001 - Kenyatta Jones, T, 4th
2003 - Dan Koppen, C, 5th
2005 - Logan Mankins, G, 1st
2005 - Nick Kaczur, T, 3rd
2006 - Ryan O'Callaghan, T, 5th
2006 - Dan Stevenson, G, 6th
2007 - Clint Oldenburg, T, 5th
2007 - Corey Hilliard, T, 6th
2007 - Mike Elgin, G, 7th

The pick that makes it all happen was the pick of Matt Light in their 2nd draft. Adrian Klemm missed the entire 2001 season and ended up only starting 10 games his entire time in New England. Greg Randall started 4 games his rookie year and 16 his 2nd, but was replaced in 2002 by Kenyatta Jones, who only lasted 11 games and missed the entire 2003 season.

Their 2 to 3 best picks after Light (Mankins, Kaczur, and to a lesser extent Koppen) came into a line that was already established. Granted Damien Woody was a 1st-round draft pick in 1999 for the previous regime, but Andruzzi was a free agent 2000 as was Compton in 2001, who had already been in the league for almost a decade.

So what does this all mean? To me, it means we shouldn't be real surprised that Pioli didn't go balls-out on the offensive line this offseason. The Patriots real success in building their 2001 offensive line that won the first championship came in the 2001 offseason, not 2000. In fact, their 2000 draft only landed one player of significance - Tom Brady. The rest of the draft is pretty ho-hum.

htismaqe · 05-08-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

So if you are saying what happened in year one in New England is going to happen in KC then that means in year 2 the Chiefs will win the Super Bowl. Duh

Its still assinine. Pioli is a tad more experienced now that he was the very first year he was at New England. As Belichick has said "Am I a better coach than I was 10 years ago? I better be!"

Ask any Patriot fan if they are pleased with the results of the Patriots drafting.
Posted via Mobile Device

You've COMPLETELY missed the point of the thread.

I've seen several people complain about our draft. We didn't do anything to fix the OL while the Patriots started by building a dominating offensive line.

As the facts clearly show, the Patriots didn't start by building the dominating line that everybody has in their heads. The names you listed off in your previous post - came AFTER they had already won a Super Bowl.

The near panic amongst the fanbase about not drafting any offensive linemen is rooted in Patriot MYTH, not reality.

el borracho · 05-08-2009, 09:59 PM

Hmm... I think the concern is as follows:
* all agree the Chiefs' Oline was atrocious in 2008 and needed help
* it was generally accepted that this draft was flush with offensive line talent
* on paper, the Chiefs failed to take advantage of the strength of the draft because the only Olineman they drafted was a 5th round guy nobody had ever heard of.

Now, it certainly isn't any reason to go on any sort of rampage. We are in year one of a rebuild and we could not have gotten everything on our wish list, but it is notable that the Chiefs' went away from the perceived strength of the draft, even when that strength is/was a position of need.

Making matters appear worse, this was not at all a sexy draft for the Chiefs. There were absolutely no draft day heros; no QBOTF; no 6'5, 4.3 WR; no 14 sack-a-season DEs. Just blue-collar worker guys to plug some of the (many) holes. I think most people realize there were too many holes but the draft would appear better on paper if the Chiefs had gone Oline earlier (and with a name) and then selected a more flashy player here and there.

P.S. I'm not saying the Chiefs messed it up, only that it isn't sexy on paper.

Pioli Zombie · 05-08-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISmaqe

You've COMPLETELY missed the point of the thread.

I've seen several people complain about our draft. We didn't do anything to fix the OL while the Patriots started by building a dominating offensive line.

As the facts clearly show, the Patriots didn't start by building the dominating line that everybody has in their heads. The names you listed off in your previous post - came AFTER they had already won a Super Bowl.

The near panic amongst the fanbase about not drafting any offensive linemen is rooted in Patriot MYTH, not reality.

Matt Light and Greg Robinson-Randall were, in fact, the offensive tackles on the 2001 team and were drafted to be so. Klemm didn't work out.
I don't think any team sets out to NOT draft a great OL or DL. All you can go by is a track record.
Before the draft I said people wouldn't like it because fans never could understand Patriot drafts either. After a while you just learned to trust that the players they targeted were picked for a reason and it has generally worked out.
No, Pioli is not the draft day trade manipulator Belichick is, at least not yet. But as far as picking talent there is no reason to not have confidence in his judgement. With his track record if he targeted Jackson and MaGee than they will be solid.
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Sweet Daddy Hate · 05-08-2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

Matt Light and Greg Robinson-Randall were, in fact, the offensive tackles on the 2001 team and were drafted to be so. Klemm didn't work out.
I don't think any team sets out to NOT draft a great OL or DL. All you can go by is a track record.
Before the draft I said people wouldn't like it because fans never could understand Patriot drafts either. After a while you just learned to trust that the players they targeted were picked for a reason and it has generally worked out.
No, Pioli is not the draft day trade manipulator Belichick is, at least not yet. But as far as picking talent there is no reason to not have confidence in his judgement. With his track record if he targeted Jackson and MaGee than they will be solid.
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His Peace He gives unto you.

htismaqe · 05-09-2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

Matt Light and Greg Robinson-Randall were, in fact, the offensive tackles on the 2001 team and were drafted to be so. Klemm didn't work out.

2001 wasn't Pioli's first season as GM. 2000 was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

I don't think any team sets out to NOT draft a great OL or DL. All you can go by is a track record.

The reason why I posted this thread. People were referring to his track record with Patriots and somehow trying to suggest this draft didn't "fit". In reality, his track record says we shouldn't freak out just because he didn't draft any linemen. In his first draft with the Patriots, they took a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder. Furthermore, the best draft picks they had on the OL were 2nd rounders. We didn't have a 2nd-rounder, but we did take a late-round tackle, so we didn't diverge wildly from history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

Before the draft I said people wouldn't like it because fans never could understand Patriot drafts either. After a while you just learned to trust that the players they targeted were picked for a reason and it has generally worked out.

All the more reason to post this - to remind people that there's a method to the seeming madness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

No, Pioli is not the draft day trade manipulator Belichick is, at least not yet. But as far as picking talent there is no reason to not have confidence in his judgement. With his track record if he targeted Jackson and MaGee than they will be solid.

Pioli was late arriving and his head coach was even later. He had to make picks based on the input of the previous regime's scouts. It happens. Furthermore, BB and Pioli weren't big draft day manipulators right out of the gate. People see that Super Bowl in 2001 and mistakenly think Rome was built in a day, when in reality they drafted Tom Brady that year and it was like a bolt of lightning. The team was really "built" by about 2003.

I absolutely agree with you - there's no reason to doubt his judgement. And the purpose of this thread was to show why.

htismaqe · 05-09-2009, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by el borracho

Hmm... I think the concern is as follows:
* all agree the Chiefs' Oline was atrocious in 2008 and needed help
* it was generally accepted that this draft was flush with offensive line talent
* on paper, the Chiefs failed to take advantage of the strength of the draft because the only Olineman they drafted was a 5th round guy nobody had ever heard of.

The RIGHT side of the line was atrocious. One of those pieces, the RG, has already been replace. We drafted a potential RT. So to say we really didn't change anything isn't correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by el borracho

Now, it certainly isn't any reason to go on any sort of rampage. We are in year one of a rebuild and we could not have gotten everything on our wish list, but it is notable that the Chiefs' went away from the perceived strength of the draft, even when that strength is/was a position of need.

It think it should be pretty obvious by now that Scott Pioli doesn't care about the "strength" of the draft. It's just like the idea of trading within the division because you might "help" one of your rivals - he doesn't care about that either. We're going to have to get used to the fact that it would appear this guy and the people he have worked with in the past simply don't care about some of the things we have traditionally taken for granted. They care about winning football games, and we can hope like hell that it works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by el borracho

Making matters appear worse, this was not at all a sexy draft for the Chiefs. There were absolutely no draft day heros; no QBOTF; no 6'5, 4.3 WR; no 14 sack-a-season DEs. Just blue-collar worker guys to plug some of the (many) holes. I think most people realize there were too many holes but the draft would appear better on paper if the Chiefs had gone Oline earlier (and with a name) and then selected a more flashy player here and there.

We really didn't have an earlier pick though. Take a look at Pioli's history again. The guys that are going to make a difference are going to come out of the first and 2nd round. We weren't in a position to take an OL like that this year - we didn't have a 2nd-rounder and we don't have a NEED on the offensive line that would EVER justify using the #3 pick on one.

Pioli Zombie · 05-09-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISmaqe

2001 wasn't Pioli's first season as GM. 2000 was.

The reason why I posted this thread. People were referring to his track record with Patriots and somehow trying to suggest this draft didn't "fit". In reality, his track record says we shouldn't freak out just because he didn't draft any linemen. In his first draft with the Patriots, they took a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder. Furthermore, the best draft picks they had on the OL were 2nd rounders. We didn't have a 2nd-rounder, but we did take a late-round tackle, so we didn't diverge wildly from history.

All the more reason to post this - to remind people that there's a method to the seeming madness.

Pioli was late arriving and his head coach was even later. He had to make picks based on the input of the previous regime's scouts. It happens. Furthermore, BB and Pioli weren't big draft day manipulators right out of the gate. People see that Super Bowl in 2001 and mistakenly think Rome was built in a day, when in reality they drafted Tom Brady that year and it was like a bolt of lightning. The team was really "built" by about 2003.

I absolutely agree with you - there's no reason to doubt his judgement. And the purpose of this thread was to show why.

Oh. Well that's different

NEVER MIND.

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htismaqe · 05-09-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

Oh. Well that's different

NEVER MIND.

Posted via Mobile Device

It's cool. Why do you think I kept telling you you missed the point?

milkman · 05-09-2009, 06:59 AM

I don't think we can look back on these drafts and make any assumptions.

Unless we can go back and see how the value was viewed at the time, we can't really compare.

Just loooking at that 2000 draft, the value at O-Line, in retrospect, was crap.

Will we be able to look back on this draft in 5-10 years and say the same?

milkman · 05-09-2009, 07:02 AM

One other thing.

Those Patriot O-Linemen that have been drafted aren't really all that great.

They've been made to look better than they are by Tom Brady, who has an uncanny ability to feel pressure and glide in the pocket away from that pressure.

Sweet Daddy Hate · 05-09-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

One other thing.

Those Patriot O-Linemen that have been drafted aren't really all that great.

They've been made to look better than they are by Tom Brady, who has an uncanny ability to feel pressure and glide in the pocket away from that pressure.

We've all heard Pioli's draft philosophy about 100 times now. The 2009 draft was relatively "in the zone" of his philosophy, but if you think need didn't take precedence over BPA, you're out of your mind.

And, I watched the NE vs Chiefs game again last night at the Classic Games site. Some observations:

Matt Cassel made the win happen. Brady played that game like his mind was elsewhere. Perhaps on the golf course or getting a hummer from the old lady?
Cassel came in, took control, and though somewhat "Wild Thing w/o his glasses" at first, he settled in and looked way more comfortable than a backup QB with his lack of snap-time should look.
I've warmed up to the idea of Matt; all he has to do now is win me over with his play.

The star of the show was NE's defensive line and LB's. Johnson and Charles might as well have been in the stands eating nachos.

Huard and Croyle; be gone! I don't give a merry blue **** what Dierdorf, Gumbel, or anyone else has to say:
Several of those "dropsie passes" to Bowe were absolute SHIT.
Bowe FTW!!!!

And finally, how many big plays and touchdowns do I have to watch Bernard Pollard prevent before this guy gets off the hate list? How many times do I have to watch him being the ONE ****ING GUY that keeps the opponent out of the end zone before he gets some overdue respect from some of you's sacks of shit?!
Pollard FTK!!!
(for the kill)

MoreLemonPledge · 05-09-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raised On Riots

Matt Cassel made the win happen. Brady played that game like his mind was elsewhere. Perhaps on the golf course or getting a hummer from the old lady?
Cassel came in, took control, and though somewhat "Wild Thing w/o his glasses" at first, he settled in and looked way more comfortable than a backup QB with his lack of snap-time should look.
I've warmed up to the idea of Matt; all he has to do now is win me over with his play.

Hath Hell frozen over?

Sweet Daddy Hate · 05-09-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreLemonPledge

Hath Hell frozen over?

And I saw bigfoot last night too!

Pioli Zombie · 05-09-2009, 01:57 PM

Most hilarious thing about that game was even when the Chiefs took it down the field at the end you KNEW they weren't going to score.

If you liked Cassell in that game there are a lot better games later. The Jets game, the game at Miami, the game at Oakland after his father passed away, the Arizona game. Etc etc
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Sweet Daddy Hate · 05-09-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

Most hilarious thing about that game was even when the Chiefs took it down the field at the end you KNEW they weren't going to score.

If you liked Cassell in that game there are a lot better games later. The Jets game, the game at Miami, the game at Oakland after his father passed away, the Arizona game. Etc etc
Posted via Mobile Device

Good God; Croyle and Huard don't even belong on "Pro's vs Joes".

05-08-2009, 10:41 AM
htismaqe 'Tis my eye! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Chiefsplanet Casino cash: $10269900	The offensive line and Pioli's "track record". I keep seeing posts complaining about the lack of offensive linemen taken in the draft and comments like "The Patriots built up their OL and DL and won the Super Bowl". Until now I hadn't done much research, but seemed to remember that their actual draft history with offensive linemen wasn't that great. So I did a little digging and here's what I found. Let's start with the starting offensive lines (LT-RT) during Pioli's tenure: 2008 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur 2007 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur 2006 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur 2005 - Kaczur, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Ashworth 2004 - Light, Andruzzi, Koppen, Neal, Gorin 2003 - Light, Woody, Koppen, Andruzzi, Ashworth 2002 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Jones 2001 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Randall 2000 - Armstrong, Andruzzi, Woody, Isaia, Williams And now their OL draft picks during Pioli's tenure: 2000 - Adrian Klemm, G, 2nd 2000 - Greg Randall, T, 4th 2001 - Matt Light, T, 2nd 2001 - Kenyatta Jones, T, 4th 2003 - Dan Koppen, C, 5th 2005 - Logan Mankins, G, 1st 2005 - Nick Kaczur, T, 3rd 2006 - Ryan O'Callaghan, T, 5th 2006 - Dan Stevenson, G, 6th 2007 - Clint Oldenburg, T, 5th 2007 - Corey Hilliard, T, 6th 2007 - Mike Elgin, G, 7th The pick that makes it all happen was the pick of Matt Light in their 2nd draft. Adrian Klemm missed the entire 2001 season and ended up only starting 10 games his entire time in New England. Greg Randall started 4 games his rookie year and 16 his 2nd, but was replaced in 2002 by Kenyatta Jones, who only lasted 11 games and missed the entire 2003 season. Their 2 to 3 best picks after Light (Mankins, Kaczur, and to a lesser extent Koppen) came into a line that was already established. Granted Damien Woody was a 1st-round draft pick in 1999 for the previous regime, but Andruzzi was a free agent 2000 as was Compton in 2001, who had already been in the league for almost a decade. So what does this all mean? To me, it means we shouldn't be real surprised that Pioli didn't go balls-out on the offensive line this offseason. The Patriots real success in building their 2001 offensive line that won the first championship came in the 2001 offseason, not 2000. In fact, their 2000 draft only landed one player of significance - Tom Brady. The rest of the draft is pretty ho-hum.
Posts: 100,022

05-08-2009, 09:59 PM	#47
el borracho In Pat We Trust Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Albuquerque, NM Casino cash: $6419148	Hmm... I think the concern is as follows: * all agree the Chiefs' Oline was atrocious in 2008 and needed help * it was generally accepted that this draft was flush with offensive line talent * on paper, the Chiefs failed to take advantage of the strength of the draft because the only Olineman they drafted was a 5th round guy nobody had ever heard of. Now, it certainly isn't any reason to go on any sort of rampage. We are in year one of a rebuild and we could not have gotten everything on our wish list, but it is notable that the Chiefs' went away from the perceived strength of the draft, even when that strength is/was a position of need. Making matters appear worse, this was not at all a sexy draft for the Chiefs. There were absolutely no draft day heros; no QBOTF; no 6'5, 4.3 WR; no 14 sack-a-season DEs. Just blue-collar worker guys to plug some of the (many) holes. I think most people realize there were too many holes but the draft would appear better on paper if the Chiefs had gone Oline earlier (and with a name) and then selected a more flashy player here and there. P.S. I'm not saying the Chiefs messed it up, only that it isn't sexy on paper.
Posts: 11,816

05-09-2009, 06:59 AM	#54
milkman Dumbass! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Leading the Marty bashing Casino cash: $10029395	I don't think we can look back on these drafts and make any assumptions. Unless we can go back and see how the value was viewed at the time, we can't really compare. Just loooking at that 2000 draft, the value at O-Line, in retrospect, was crap. Will we be able to look back on this draft in 5-10 years and say the same? __________________
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05-09-2009, 07:02 AM	#55
milkman Dumbass! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Leading the Marty bashing Casino cash: $10029395	One other thing. Those Patriot O-Linemen that have been drafted aren't really all that great. They've been made to look better than they are by Tom Brady, who has an uncanny ability to feel pressure and glide in the pocket away from that pressure. __________________
Posts: 70,769

05-09-2009, 01:57 PM	#59
Pioli Zombie Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: olathe,kansas Casino cash: $10004900	Most hilarious thing about that game was even when the Chiefs took it down the field at the end you KNEW they weren't going to score. If you liked Cassell in that game there are a lot better games later. The Jets game, the game at Miami, the game at Oakland after his father passed away, the Arizona game. Etc etc Posted via Mobile Device
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